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post #201 of 599
Quote:
Originally Posted by randomizer View Post
I see that the OP has gone through a few changes since I last read it (which was at least 6 months ago). I also see that you've finally updated the Tjunction Targets with the "correct" values. Did you edit the image of the tables with the correct values? I know they were the old ones earlier.
The images have indeed been updated to reflect the correct values.
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post #202 of 599
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by randomizer View Post
I see that the OP has gone through a few changes since I last read it (which was at least 6 months ago). I also see that you've finally updated the Tjunction Targets with the "correct" values. Did you edit the image of the tables with the correct values? I know they were the old ones earlier.
The joys of limited experience with photoshop.
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post #203 of 599
I thought so, because the original article they are from was never updated.
    
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post #204 of 599
I wouldn't use any of the values that Intel released at their IDF conferences as TJMax. I wouldn't adjust RealTemp or Core Temp with these values either. There's a reason why these two programs generally ignored this news release. Intel's IDF numbers for the 65nm CPUs were like numbers out of a hat and have no correlation with actual TJMax.

randomizer sent me his E6600 for some testing that he thought must have a TJMax similar to what Intel was claiming but after squaring it up and testing it with an IR thermometer it came out as TJMax = 90C just like the other B2 stepping CPUs I've tested. Intel mentioned that when they released the G0 CPUs, they were able to boost TJMax by 10C which puts a Q6600 G0 at TJMax = 100C, exactly as tested.

There's also a lot of Quads that seem to use a split TJMax where this value is deliberately set differently on core 2 and core 3 compared to core 0 and core 1. I think my Q6600 was actually TJMax = 100C, 100C, 105C, 105C which Intel might have done to better control thermal throttling so all 4 cores would be a lot less likely to reach the throttling point at the exact same time.

Once you use the correct TJMax, there's not nearly as much slope error in the early 65nm sensors as Intel would like users to believe.

I found some documentation about Intel's new i7-920XM mobile CPUs where they finally published the accuracy of TJMax on these new CPUs.



TJMax has never been a fixed number on any of their CPUs. There has always been this much variation and maybe slightly more on the 45nm Core 2 CPUs, some of which had some truly horrible sensors.

Releasing TJ target data for the 65nm CPUs that was originally 20C less than the actual TJMax and then got corrected to 10C less than TJMax will lower your reported temperatures but I don't believe these numbers are very accurate for the majority of retail CPUs when used as TJMax.
post #205 of 599
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by unclewebb View Post
I wouldn't use any of the values that Intel released at their IDF conferences as TJMax. I wouldn't adjust RealTemp or Core Temp with these values either. There's a reason why these two programs generally ignored this news release. Intel's IDF numbers for the 65nm CPUs were like numbers out of a hat and have no correlation with actual TJMax.
I've personally found that these numbers seem to be generally accurate. What makes you think that they are innacurate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclewebb View Post
randomizer sent me his E6600 for some testing that he thought must have a TJMax similar to what Intel was claiming but after squaring it up and testing it with an IR thermometer it came out as TJMax = 90C just like the other B2 stepping CPUs I've tested. Intel mentioned that when they released the G0 CPUs, they were able to boost TJMax by 10C which puts a Q6600 G0 at TJMax = 100C, exactly as tested.
The best you could do with an IR thermometer would be to take the measurment of Tcase and not the core temps. BTW Tcase is generally 10C lower than the core temps, which makes your arguement of testing with an IR thermometer inherently flawed. Also, there is no reason to "boost TJ Max" by 10C unless your thermal specifications are increased, which did not happen with the G0 steppings. Otherwise, the temperatures would read more inaccurately at the critical points.


Quote:
Originally Posted by unclewebb View Post
There's also a lot of Quads that seem to use a split TJMax where this value is deliberately set differently on core 2 and core 3 compared to core 0 and core 1. I think my Q6600 was actually TJMax = 100C, 100C, 105C, 105C which Intel might have done to better control thermal throttling so all 4 cores would be a lot less likely to reach the throttling point at the exact same time.
I've heard this thought before, but I've seen nothing definitive anywhere to back it up. I'm not dismissing it, but I have seen some Core 2 CPU's that all 4 cores seem very even.


Quote:
Originally Posted by unclewebb View Post
Once you use the correct TJMax, there's not nearly as much slope error in the early 65nm sensors as Intel would like users to believe.
Using the correct TJ Max value does not change slope error. It simply uses the correct offset for a constant value. Reported Temp=TJ Max-Dist to Tj Max. The Dist to TJ Max value is the only changing variable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclewebb View Post
I found some documentation about Intel's new i7-920XM mobile CPUs where they finally published the accuracy of TJMax on these new CPUs.

Read again. The accuracy at TJ Max (as in Dist to TJ Max=0) shall not be mre innacurate than +/-5C, which is basically stating that at Dist to TJ Max=0, the values are very accurate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclewebb View Post
TJMax has never been a fixed number on any of their CPUs. There has always been this much variation and maybe slightly more on the 45nm Core 2 CPUs, some of which had some truly horrible sensors.
See Section The Controversy
Quote:
The Controversy
The numbers listed above are not the actual TJ Max values for each CPU; they are the TJ Max Target values. Each CPU has its own TJ Max that should be near the values above, but it may not be exact. Each CPU is set individually at the factory, but the TJ Max Target is what they were aiming for so it is the best estimate of what our core temperatures really are.
I clearly stated that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclewebb View Post
Releasing TJ target data for the 65nm CPUs that was originally 20C less than the actual TJMax and then got corrected to 10C less than TJMax will lower your reported temperatures but I don't believe these numbers are very accurate for the majority of retail CPUs when used as TJMax.
The initial TJ Max values were best guesses by the guys who made Real Temp and Core Temp and even they admit that they were guesses. Also, not all of the values were corrected from 20C difference to 10C difference, in fact I think only one was (Q6600 B3 went from 80C to 90C), but that was listed as a simple typo very quickly after the conference and was updated.


I took my time with this and learned alot more than is written in this thread. My points are valid and researched.
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post #206 of 599
FWIW, unclewebb did make Real Temp.

I generally doubt the accuracy of these values, and pretty much anything Intel shows off at IDF, simply because Intel published them completely wrong the first time around. I can understand making one minor error, but when half of your presentation needs fixing (which took 2 weeks of myself and Arthur Liberman, the Core Temp dev, emailing the presenter to get done) you're either hiding something or you don't even know your own company's data.
    
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post #207 of 599
Regardless of what TJmax is, the distance from TJmax doesn't change. And that's all that really matters.
    
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post #208 of 599
Quote:
Originally Posted by PizzaMan View Post
Regardless of what TJmax is, the distance from TJmax doesn't change. And that's all that really matters.
This is truth. I prefer to forget about temperatures myself (hell I deliberately overheated my E6600 a few times), as I could make them show up below ambient if I wanted. It doesn't change the function of the very effective thermal protection mechanisms so there's little point losing sleep over absolute accuracy, at least as much as people worry about it today. I would only worry if the chip was throttling at temperatures it shouldn't be, as I would be incurring damage to the chip or loss of overclocking headroom.

EDIT: Not trying to threadcrap btw.
Edited by randomizer - 9/29/09 at 6:13pm
    
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post #209 of 599
Real temp and core temp do not use those 65nm figures because they are impossible. Using both an IR gun and a calibrated thermocouple embedded in IHS, at DTS=0, the IHS temp on E6850 is 93C. So if tjmax is 90C and IHS is 92-93C, then heat is flowing from IHS to core. Drilling hole into it, core temps by calibrated thermocouple (certified accurate on fluke to +/- 0.1C) read couple C higher. Did the same thing to E8400, and few other chips. Here is pic of my E6850 with IR gun, which gives same temps as thermocouple. Have youtube vids, pics, etc in unclewebbs real temp thread.


Doing same with E8400, drilling hole, thermocouple IR gun, all confirmed intels correct tjmax on E8400, just 65nm numbers, which intel keeps changing are completely out to lunch.

As for gradient at idle, underclocked it is roughly 5C from core to IHS. That has been shown in stanford paper (posted in realtemp thread), and drilling hole into core will show same thing. And unclewebb is setting tjmax to 5C over IHS reading, which at roughly 2-3W output on underclocked, undervolted cpu, that is what you see.

The gradient from core to IHS varies based on watts dissipated.
At 2-4W, where unclewebb, myself, and others measure it is roughly 5C. At full load, gradient can approach 25+C (you can see that on video at realtemp with drilled hole in cpu), or just use intels formula for calculating such.


As an aside, even intel engineer who gave the presentation, stated those numbers are targets and cpus were adjusted higher, in fact the presentation itself says so.
Edited by opt33 - 9/29/09 at 6:54pm
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post #210 of 599
Wouldn't the higher thermal resistance of the IHS vs top of the die explain why IHS is slightly hotter then core?
    
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