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The Truth about Temperatures and Voltages - Page 48

post #471 of 599
Quote:
Originally Posted by PizzaMan View Post
I always thought the slight differences I saw in HWMonitor were do to the fact that it obviously doesn't update with newer readings at the same times as RT and CT do. RT and CT seem to update in tune with each other. HWM marches to the beat of its own drummer.
This would still mean it would catch up to them eventually. Being consistently lower by the same amount doesn't seem to fit that well with that reasoning I don't think.
    
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post #472 of 599
Realtemp and Coretemp are using the formula:
Core Temp = TJ Max – Distance to TJ Max, simply reading the bits and reporting temps as they should.

TAT used to access peci, and had access to all DTS sensors, not just hottest, and did some type of rolling average, and always reported load temps below coretemp. I think HWM is doing something along the same line. When i am at 4.6ghz, HWM reads 4-6C lower than realtemp and coretemp, it simply is not reporting hottest core, but is doing some type of screwy average at load of ? multiple DTS sensors...but it is clearly accessing acpi ? before filter to hottest DTS...you can disable smbus and acpi in HWM ini file by setting both to zero (cant delete them, without setting smbus to zero or Hwm will simply write them back), but in doing so temps really get screwed up. AT idle, temps are so screwy though, cant figure out what it is doing.

HWM is definitely not reporting core temps in same normal manner by using tmax-distance to tjmax.
Edited by opt33 - 1/11/10 at 7:49pm
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post #473 of 599
Do you know if it's screwy for other chips or just i7?
    
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post #474 of 599
Thread Starter 
From my experience HWMonitor has always been slightly different than the other temp monitoring programs, but I thought that it was just refreshing at a slightly different time causing the reported temps to be around the value of the other programs but just slightly off (I saw this on a G0 Q6600). The temps never truly appeared to be different, but almost refreshing at a slightly different time.
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post #475 of 599
Well, naturally they will refresh differently unless they started reporting temps at precisely the same time and at intervals which line up nicely. But that doesn't explain a consistently lower temp with constant load.
    
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post #476 of 599

All programs refresh differently, all will read differently at different times, but mathematically not possible for hwm to just be refreshing at different times and have 3-4C higher temps at steady state idle, and 3-4C lower temps at 100% steady state coredamage load, especially looking at max and min temps over times, where realtemp and coretemp will usually have all 4 or 3 of 4 same min/max, whereas all 4 of HWM are 3-4C lower at load.

Interestingly, when disable ACPI/smbus in ini file, though it screws up idle more, the load temps now report exactly same as coretemp and realtemp.

EDIT: as an aside, regarding the 10C difference between heatspreader and core on first page...

The gradient is very similar on most cpus at idle, because almost all cpus idle between 3-8W. And variance from cpu to cpu is irrelevant at idle, because typical 15-20% difference in leakage at idle, is still 1W, ie less than 1C difference. So if you want to say most cpus at stock idle have a gradient of 7-8C from heatspreader to core, that would be reasonably accurate. (it is about 5C if undervolted to max, regardless of cpu variance, since variance at idle is less than 1C).

But at load, my E8400 with known tjmax 100C per intel, with hole drilled through heatsink and then into IHS per intel specs and calibrated thermocouple inserted into IHS, at around ~45W with orthos, gradient from core to IHS was ~15C. Near 60W with linx, gradient from core to IHS was 20C. Here is video, showing first the ~7-8C gradient at stock idle, vs 20-24C gradient at linx load from core temp using tjmax 100C (known for E8400) vs calibrated thermocouple in IHS (accurate to within +/- 0.1C per factory calibration of surface temp).


This same variable gradient from heatspreader to core has been shown at stanford with help from intel, on pentium processor, though gradient on this chip varied between 15C to 30C from core to heatspreader dependant on loading program and TDP, and was about 5C at idle.
1st black line (from bottom) is ambient
2nd black line is IHS (thermocouple)
3rd black line is cpu temp diode sensor
then multipe grey core temps in various locations of core, here all are reported though vs coretemp/realtemp only reporting after filter, ie hottest.

Low tdp load programs like art, roughly only 5-6C between IHS and cpu temp and another 5-6C from cpu diode to core temps, ie max 10-12C from IHS to core.

High tdp load program like gzip, there is almost 30C gradient from IHS to core.


Edited by opt33 - 1/12/10 at 12:08pm
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post #477 of 599
So which do you think is more accurate?
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post #478 of 599
Coretemp and Realtemp are correctly using formula, to constantly show you the hottest core, which is what you want to know. HWM is using some type of rolling avg via acpi....and ? averaging at same place as peci/TAT used to, but again maybe only on i7's it is doing that, other people with non-i7s dont seem to be having that issue.

So to me, only realtemp/coretemp are showing the temps correctly on i7... though guess nothing wrong with using a rolling avg, but simply not interested in it myself.
Edited by opt33 - 1/12/10 at 12:03pm
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post #479 of 599
Good stuff.

Do you guys have the issue with the temp reading jumping around pretty wildly. With coretemp my loads stay under 82c linpack but vary from core to core of roughly 10c and also will jump around around 3-8c,

I was thinking thats hyperthreading causing the variations but not sure if thats common or not.
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post #480 of 599
Great post from opt33 regarding core to IHS temperature differential.

It really should be common sense, but there are still people quoting ~70C as the max core temp of an i7 (and other intel CPUs with ~100C tjmax) when Intel clearly states that such temperatures are tCASE, not core temps. For years I've been repeatedly saying that Intel's ~70C tcase is essentially the same as ~100C tjmax, but it seems it's mostly fallen on deaf ears.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MADMAX22 View Post
Do you guys have the issue with the temp reading jumping around pretty wildly. With coretemp my loads stay under 82c linpack but vary from core to core of roughly 10c and also will jump around around 3-8c.

I was thinking thats hyperthreading causing the variations but not sure if thats common or not.
Linpack does not put a continuous stress on the CPU, it tests one core for a short period, then all cores for a longer period, then another core, and so on.

So, it's intentionally dropping to idle for short periods. Just part of the stress test, as there are issue that will only crop up when entering or leaving a load, as opposed to maintaining the same one continuously.
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