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post #481 of 599
I have a quick ?

From the thread...

"What about Maximum Voltages and Overclocking?

If you run at or below the Absolute Maximum Voltages for your CPU, you should never experience degredation or lose of life on your CPU. Overclocking will not decrease the lifetime of your CPU if and only if certain criteria are met.

1.) Electrical Specification must be satisfied (1.55v for 65nm Core 2 Series and 1.45v for 45nm Core 2 Series ***Core i7/i5 list 1.55v as their maximum, and I am still waiting on a response from Intel about its validity**)

According to Intel, "Within functional operation limits, functionality and long-term reliability can be expected." This says nothing about running over stock voltages or stock clocks. Only that you need to be stable, cool, below the maximum voltage, and mechanically sound at any speed.

Interestingly enough, criteria 2 (Signal Quality) alludes to the idea that unstable overclocks cause CPU degredation. This actually makes sense if you think of unstable/inappropriate signals causing BSODs and other errors actually causing physical damage as the inappropriate signals move through the CPU at random.

For the exact wording in the Intel document
Quote:
Absolute Maximum and Minimum Ratings
Table 2-2 specifies absolute maximum and minimum ratings only and lie outside the
functional limits of the processor. Within functional operation limits, functionality and
long-term reliability can be expected.
"

The OP states that you can run your i7 at 1.55v and it is within functional operational limits. Then right below that it has a quote directly from Intel stating that the 1.55v absolute max is outside of functional operational limits. So....whats the max voltage you can run i7 at without degrading your chip?
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post #482 of 599
@liberalelephant

I see the discussion has jumped threads. I have this one subbed too. My favorite threads nowadays.

1.55V on an i7 is beyond the "functional limit," but within the "absolute maximum."
The VID (1.375V) is the "functional limit" of the CPU.

The datasheet states pretty clearly that anything over 1.375V is NOT within the functional operational limit, and therefore risks damage (lowered life).

It says the same thing on the C2D E7000/E8000 datasheet.
The VID (1.3625V) is the "functional limit" of the CPU, and 1.45V is the "absolute maximum." The same warning appears in this datasheet, exceeding the VID will in some way potentially damage the CPU.

Edit:
I'm sure there's not much harm to running i7 at 1.55V, or 45nm C2D at 1.45, but people ask if it's fine to run their CPUs at such and such a voltage and I've seen a lot of people say, "yea 1.45V on an E8400 is totally fine." Which is probably largely true, but a better answer would be to say, 1.45V is probably going to be fine for years, however the Intel datasheet states that that's beyond the functional limit of the CPU and risks reducing its life / killing it."

Edit 2:
The OP addressed this, he said that he isn't aware of any OC fade at 1.45V / 1.55V on these CPUs.
Edited by coelacanth - 1/12/10 at 2:21pm
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post #483 of 599
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberalelephant View Post
I have a quick ?

From the thread...

"What about Maximum Voltages and Overclocking?

If you run at or below the Absolute Maximum Voltages for your CPU, you should never experience degredation or lose of life on your CPU. Overclocking will not decrease the lifetime of your CPU if and only if certain criteria are met.

1.) Electrical Specification must be satisfied (1.55v for 65nm Core 2 Series and 1.45v for 45nm Core 2 Series ***Core i7/i5 list 1.55v as their maximum, and I am still waiting on a response from Intel about its validity**)

According to Intel, "Within functional operation limits, functionality and long-term reliability can be expected." This says nothing about running over stock voltages or stock clocks. Only that you need to be stable, cool, below the maximum voltage, and mechanically sound at any speed.

Interestingly enough, criteria 2 (Signal Quality) alludes to the idea that unstable overclocks cause CPU degredation. This actually makes sense if you think of unstable/inappropriate signals causing BSODs and other errors actually causing physical damage as the inappropriate signals move through the CPU at random.

For the exact wording in the Intel document
Quote:
Absolute Maximum and Minimum Ratings
Table 2-2 specifies absolute maximum and minimum ratings only and lie outside the
functional limits of the processor. Within functional operation limits, functionality and
long-term reliability can be expected.
"

The OP states that you can run your i7 at 1.55v and it is within functional operational limits. Then right below that it has a quote directly from Intel stating that the 1.55v absolute max is outside of functional operational limits. So....whats the max voltage you can run i7 at without degrading your chip?
The reason that they list it as an absolute max is that it is the true point at which they are saying degredation can start to occur. These points are outside of the functional limits themselves, but they are saying this is the barrier/the limit. At exactly 1.55v (they don't specify sig figs beyond the hundredths place so I won't assume more) is the maximum so therefore I would run up to 1.54v (again only giving 2 sig figs after the decimal point) and say that you are under the maximum rating. The functional limits are defined not just by the electrical and thermal specifications, but also by the mechanical and signal quality specifications such that a CPU at 1.20v (safe voltage) and 40C (Safe temp) that is running at 10.9ghz (completely unstable/poor signal quality) is under the absolute maximum specifcations as shown in the table, but is outside of the functional limits of the CPU itself due to its poor signal quality.


Quote:
Originally Posted by coelacanth View Post
@liberalelephant

I see the discussion has jumped threads. I have this one subbed too. My favorite threads nowadays.

1.55V on an i7 is beyond the "functional limit," but within the "absolute maximum."
The VID (1.375V) is the "functional limit" of the CPU.

The datasheet states pretty clearly that anything over 1.375V is NOT within the functional operational limit, and therefore risks damage (lowered life).

It says the same thing on the C2D E7000/E8000 datasheet.
The VID (1.3625V) is the "functional limit" of the CPU, and 1.45V is the "absolute maximum." The same warning appears in this datasheet, exceeding the VID will in some way potentially damage the CPU.

Edit:
I'm sure there's not much harm to running i7 at 1.55V, or 45nm C2D at 1.45, but people ask if it's fine to run their CPUs at such and such a voltage and I've seen a lot of people say, "yea 1.45V on an E8400 is totally fine." Which is probably largely true, but a better answer would be to say, 1.45V is probably going to be fine for years, however the Intel datasheet states that that's beyond the functional limit of the CPU and risks reducing its life / killing it."

Edit 2:
The OP addressed this, he said that he isn't aware of any OC fade at 1.45V / 1.55V on these CPUs.
The functional limits are actually a four part answer with the absolute maximum ratings only being 2 parts of the answer. You can be under the absolute maximums but be outside of the functional limit by being unstable/mechanically unsound as shown above. The VID isn't the maximum functional limit. It's more of the maximum voltage that they were willing to give to a CPU in order to keep it cool on the stock cooler.
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post #484 of 599
Yea I agree, there are a number of different "functional limits," with voltage being just a single parameter, and in terms of voltage, the functional limit (according to the datasheet) = VID.

That's all I was pointing out, I wasn't trying to suggest that we're going to start seeing SNDS (Sudden Northwood Death Syndrome) part II.

I just thought that it was interesting that exceeding VID voltage comes with a warning from Big Blue, given that so many people here are running voltages beyond VID.
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post #485 of 599
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenInferno View Post
The reason that they list it as an absolute max is that it is the true point at which they are saying degredation can start to occur. These points are outside of the functional limits themselves, but they are saying this is the barrier/the limit. At exactly 1.55v (they don't specify sig figs beyond the hundredths place so I won't assume more) is the maximum so therefore I would run up to 1.54v (again only giving 2 sig figs after the decimal point) and say that you are under the maximum rating. The functional limits are defined not just by the electrical and thermal specifications, but also by the mechanical and signal quality specifications such that a CPU at 1.20v (safe voltage) and 40C (Safe temp) that is running at 10.9ghz (completely unstable/poor signal quality) is under the absolute maximum specifcations as shown in the table, but is outside of the functional limits of the CPU itself due to its poor signal quality.
Okay so I was right when I tell people "As long as you are 100% stable and temps are fine up to 1.55v is okay". Thanks for clarification. For a second I thought I may have been sending i7's to an early grave lol.
Edited by liberalelephant - 1/12/10 at 4:58pm
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post #486 of 599
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberalelephant View Post
Okay so I was right when I tell people "As long as you are 100% stable and temps are fine up to 1.55v is okay". Thanks for clarification. For a second I thought I may have been sending i7's to an early grave lol.
According to the datasheet, it is an early grave. But how early is anyone's guess. And like many have pointed out, upgrade-time will most likely come before CPU death.

Patch made a good point too. When people sell-on their CPUs, it's probably best to disclose how the CPU was used, if it was outside of the functional operational limits.
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post #487 of 599
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coelacanth View Post
Yea I agree, there are a number of different "functional limits," with voltage being just a single parameter, and in terms of voltage, the functional limit (according to the datasheet) = VID.

That's all I was pointing out, I wasn't trying to suggest that we're going to start seeing SNDS (Sudden Northwood Death Syndrome) part II.

I just thought that it was interesting that exceeding VID voltage comes with a warning from Big Blue, given that so many people here are running voltages beyond VID.
The functional limit of voltage is not the VID range. There is nothing in the data sheet that definitively says that anywhere. The quotes from my OP are directly from the intel white sheets that do not say anything about the VID range being the functional range. I can see where you think that functional range ends at VID, and that it is grey area until the absolute maximum, but think about this. Why would they then not just call the maximum VID the absolute maximum if it is going to degrade your chip? It doesn't make sense to say that the max VID is okay, but then there is an area of degredation followed by an absolute maximum where you will get that same area of degredation.

I hope that makes a little more sense, but the overall message is that VID range is not the functional limit range.
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post #488 of 599
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenInferno View Post
The functional limit of voltage is not the VID range. There is nothing in the data sheet that definitively says that anywhere. The quotes from my OP are directly from the intel white sheets that do not say anything about the VID range being the functional range. I can see where you think that functional range ends at VID, and that it is grey area until the absolute maximum, but think about this. Why would they then not just call the maximum VID the absolute maximum if it is going to degrade your chip? It doesn't make sense to say that the max VID is okay, but then there is an area of degredation followed by an absolute maximum where you will get that same area of degredation.

I hope that makes a little more sense, but the overall message is that VID range is not the functional limit range.
OK good point. I need to read the datasheet more, you're right, I just surmised that the VID Range was the functional limit with regard to voltage, since it said the minimums and maximums are outside of the functional range. More reading, or perhaps an email to Intel is in order, but I'm guessing the chance of getting a reply is pretty slim.

However I think my position that the VID Range is the functional limit is justified. The datasheet says numerous times that it specifies the voltage functional limits. And we know that the mins and maxs lie outside that limit. And the only other voltage range published (specified) in the paper is the VID range. So the VID Range must be what they're referring to.

I believe that the maximum voltage being set higher than the functional range is because most non-high-end hardware (where most Intel CPUs will end up) doesn't have super awesome voltage regulation, and most of Intel's CPUs are going to be exposed to voltage spikes. It's necessary to build in a little buffer.
Edited by coelacanth - 1/12/10 at 11:10pm
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post #489 of 599
I argue that a 920 with a default VID of 0.95, overvolted to 1.375 could have the potential to be damaged (the 'maximum VID').

I believe every chip is different, every limit is different. The spec still remains the same, but the chips limits don't.

*waits to be applauded/corrected by chickeninferno*



32nm chip maximum and minimums..
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post #490 of 599
I wish my VID was 0.95V. I'm undervolted to that
    
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