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[Official] Mechanical Keyboard Guide - Page 189

post #1881 of 14551
What's the big deal, it seems the industry is adopting the term ghosting, does it really matter what term they use? I can't remember the last time I saw a board that actually ghosted anyways.

Out of curiosity, how does the sidewinder x4 get past the limitation of 6+4 key-presses on USB?
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post #1882 of 14551
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tator Tot View Post
I'm not aware of any boards that use Yellow Alps.

Do you have any in mind? Perhaps with just the basic layout like my Filco's or ABS M1?
It can have extra buttons as well, but I would prefer to stick to that standard layout.

Though, I'm considering getting a board with Cherry MX Browns that's a natural as well, if you have any in mind that would be nice.

Again, Danke for helping me with boards in the past and now Manyak.
There are only two keyboards I know of with them - the Zenith ZKB-2, and the keyboard that came with the NEC PC98 (an original IBM PC clone). Either way you're going to have to search ebay for them.

And by natural I take it you mean ergonomic. With Cherry Browns, there's the Kinesis Evolution, Kinesis Advantage, all Maltron keyboards, and the Cherry MX-5000.
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post #1883 of 14551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy9000 View Post
What's the big deal, it seems the industry is adopting the term ghosting, does it really matter what term they use? I can't remember the last time I saw a board that actually ghosted anyways.

Out of curiosity, how does the sidewinder x4 get past the limitation of 6+4 key-presses on USB?
Tator Tot and I explained why it matters to use terms correctly; especially when you're as big as Microsoft is. I guess they don't mind allowing people to be ignorant.

If I were to start my own company, I would make DAMN sure that my customers could use my advertisements and Product Pages to simultaneously be educated while they shop. I would want my customers to see me as a company who doesn't lie (or hide). I would want my customers to trust me. I would want my customers to feel more comfortable shopping from me than from other companies because I know what I'm talking about. And we all know what it feels like to buy from a store or a company who knows what they're talking about vs. one that doesn't.

I understand how weak of an argument this is, but I'm really tired and I'm not able to properly convey the importance.
Edited by TwoCables - 2/27/10 at 12:01pm
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post #1884 of 14551
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post
Tator Tot and I explained why it matters to use terms correctly; especially when you're as big as Microsoft is.
You're stating your opinion as fact, just the thing you were so pissed about someone else doing the other day.

If the industry adopts the term ghosting to mean what used to be referred to as NKRO, then it will just be called ghosting in the future. I don't see anything wrong with it at all. Also, ghosting seems like a term that's easier to understand for "average joe gamer."
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post #1885 of 14551
Yes, I'm still here.

I am personally sympathetic to the discussion of terminology, but you have to realize that Microsoft would get a lot of criticism if we didn't use terminology in the same way as the rest of the industry. By providing explicit information about SideWinder X4's capabilities, I think we are taking a huge step forward in eliminating confusion, whatever the terminology.

In the research community, I am best known for DiamondTouch, the first large scale, multi-user touch screen. So what we did is take some of the concepts of multitouch, and apply them to keyboard matrices. For the EE's in the crowd, X4 is a resistive multitouch system. It's very similar to capacitive multitouch, except that instead of measuring the capacitance from row to column, it measures the resistance. It is fairly straightforward to do this in a way that lets you measure each site fairly independently. The basic technique is described in here:

http://www.microsoft.com/appliedscie...eKeyboard.mspx

While this technique theoretically allows the system to see any number of simultaneous key presses, internal processing and the USB interface set some practical limits. We play some tricks with the USB protocol to send extra data in fairly elegant way.

Anyhow, I hope that helps. It's not often that we see real advances in underlying keyboard technology, and I appreciate the opportunity to get the word out!
post #1886 of 14551
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post
Tator Tot and I explained why it matters to use terms correctly; especially when you're as big as Microsoft is. I guess they don't mind allowing people to be ignorant.

If I were to start my own company, I would make DAMN sure that my customers could use my advertisements and Product Pages to simultaneously be educated while they shop. I would want my customers to see me as a company who doesn't lie (or hide). I would want my customers to trust me. I would want my customers to feel more comfortable shopping from me than from other companies because I know what I'm talking about. And we all know what it feels like to buy from a store or a company who knows what they're talking about vs. one that doesn't.

I understand how weak of an argument this is, but I'm really tired and I'm not able to properly convey the importance.
It's counter productive for a company, or any person to use their own resources and time to try and change a terminology when there's no investment return for it. I understand your original posts, but it's something I don't think will ever happen unless it was a personal issue on part of Microsoft to change the way the mass thought of ghosting, than for profit and more.

Personally I'm just glad that researchers have a connection with consumers and enthusiasts to make products better. However, they can also be the consultant types that don't fix the problem, but make a lot of money in prolonging the problem.

BTW PaulH, do you mind sharing with us which part of WA you're in?
    
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post #1887 of 14551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy9000 View Post
You're stating your opinion as fact, just the thing you were so pissed about someone else doing the other day.

If the industry adopts the term ghosting to mean what used to be referred to as NKRO, then it will just be called ghosting in the future. I don't see anything wrong with it at all. Also, ghosting seems like a term that's easier to understand for "average joe gamer."
What she was doing is different from what I'm doing. I'm trying to explain something (and failing at it) that is not my opinion. It's fact, even though I'm lacing it with some of my opinions on the matter (edit: failed sentence... I'm sorry). Actually, I'm sharing my feelings on the facts just because I'm a human being.


Anyway, here's my response to what you said:

But how can the term "Anti-Ghosting" fit? As we know, the reason the term became "Ghosting" is because of the extra "ghost" character that appears even though no extra key was accidentally pressed. But with the way they're using it now, it would take quite a creative person to say "this is why it's called Anti-Ghosting......." when it is actually N-Key Rollover. I'd love to see them try and explain why their technology that allows for a large number of simultaneous key presses to register is called "Anti-Ghosting". The term just doesn't fit.

This kind of marketing assumes that the customer is stupid. But that's not true because I'm really stupid, but yet I fully understood it when this Mechanical Keyboard Guide corrected me a few weeks ago. All it took was for me to read about 2 sentences, and then I understood the difference. I was then also able to explain it to others and help them understand. It's a simple concept that these companies think is too difficult for their customers to grasp, so they just continue using "Anti-Ghosting" since they don't want to have to educate their customers.

This new Sidewinder keyboard is calling it Anti-Ghosting when they're not talking about ghost characters appearing out of nowhere when you didn't intend to type that character (or even accidentally press that key). They're talking about N-Key Rollover.

I remember looking at a mechanical keyboard manufacturer's website somewhere that boldly declared that it's not Anti-Ghosting or Ghosting, but N-Key Rollover. I wish Microsoft or Razer and the like had the balls to do that.
Edited by TwoCables - 2/27/10 at 12:34pm
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post #1888 of 14551
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulHDietz View Post
Yes, I'm still here.

I am personally sympathetic to the discussion of terminology, but you have to realize that Microsoft would get a lot of criticism if we didn't use terminology in the same way as the rest of the industry. By providing explicit information about SideWinder X4's capabilities, I think we are taking a huge step forward in eliminating confusion, whatever the terminology.
I think that an even better way to eliminate confusion is to briefly state things like "this is what is commonly - and mistakenly - referred to as Anti-Ghosting" while explaining that the keyboard has improved N-Key Rollover. It enables the consumer's light-bulb to turn on and then say "Oh, I get it now!"

Is it really that difficult to use the Product Page to simultaneously teach the customer that this is actually called N-Key Rollover and not Anti-Ghosting? I know that I would feel much better about buying from a company who shows that they know what they're talking about than a company who decides to be a follower instead. It would make me feel very confident about my purchase because I'd have the confidence in knowing that my keyboard was built by people who know what they're talking about (by experts).

Forgive me for causing confusion (if any).
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulHDietz View Post
In the research community, I am best known for DiamondTouch, the first large scale, multi-user touch screen. So what we did is take some of the concepts of multitouch, and apply them to keyboard matrices. For the EE's in the crowd, X4 is a resistive multitouch system. It's very similar to capacitive multitouch, except that instead of measuring the capacitance from row to column, it measures the resistance. It is fairly straightforward to do this in a way that lets you measure each site fairly independently. The basic technique is described in here:

http://www.microsoft.com/appliedscie...eKeyboard.mspx

While this technique theoretically allows the system to see any number of simultaneous key presses, internal processing and the USB interface set some practical limits. We play some tricks with the USB protocol to send extra data in fairly elegant way.

Anyhow, I hope that helps. It's not often that we see real advances in underlying keyboard technology, and I appreciate the opportunity to get the word out!
Simultaneous key presses registering? That's N-Key Rollover. Anti-Ghosting is something entirely different.

When somebody asks why this simultaneous key pressing stuff is called "Anti-Ghosting", or "Ghosting", then what is the explanation going to be? To me, "N-Key Rollover" makes perfect sense. If you want to avoid confusion, then why use terms that technically don't make sense?
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post #1889 of 14551
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulHDietz View Post
While this technique theoretically allows the system to see any number of simultaneous key presses, internal processing and the USB interface set some practical limits. We play some tricks with the USB protocol to send extra data in fairly elegant way.
Interesting. So you're not doing anything to change the USB keyboard protocol or anything, so the board will still function in BIOS or without a driver. I'm assuming that there's some neat work going on behind the scenes with the controller and driver. I'll hazard a guess that the anti-ghosting does not work without a driver, ie. in BIOS or before a driver is installed/loaded. You don't need those capabilities then anyway.

I understand if some of this info is confidential, but I'm curious:
Does the keyboard send additional information per packet, or does it send additional packets following the first one to account for the additional keypresses? Any more information would be fascinating, but again I respect that some of this may be stuff you don't want leaking to competitors.

Also, the pressure touch system... I think I see what you did. The pressure touch system allowed voltage to vary continuously, rather than the standard on/off system. That way pressing harder caused a higher voltage (or capacitance.... not an EE ) to reach the controller, which detects it and outputs the correct information on how hard the key is pressed, which can be picked up by a program, yadda yadda. In the case of the X4 I'm guessing you put that varying voltage concept to a different use: determining which keys were actually pressed, and which are an artifact of the circuit layout. The keyboard's controller can thus figure out which keys the user meant to send, and which were a result of ghosting (the original definition). Probably ghosted keys have a higher/lower voltage... Say each keypress gives X voltage, so three keys would give 3X while two keys and a ghost would give 2X. The controller can see the difference there and figure out what the user actually intended to send. There's probably more to it, and there's obviously the usual amount of engineering detail work, but I'm guessing that's the general concept.

But it isn't perfect, right? There's uncertainty involved. As the number of keys pressed increases the voltage variability probably increases as well. Say that twenty six keys are pressed... Multiple circuits, so let's say one line has 10X volts. Maybe the sensor or the controller can't tell which keypresses are real and which are ghosts. The margin of error increases. And past a certain point you have to start blocking keys again. Which is why you still can't claim NKRO.

Is that about right?
Edited by Phaedrus2129 - 2/27/10 at 12:46pm
post #1890 of 14551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus2129 View Post
Interesting. So you're not doing anything to change the USB keyboard protocol or anything, so the board will still function in BIOS or without a driver. I'm assuming that there's some neat work going on behind the scenes with the controller and driver. I'll hazard a guess that the anti-ghosting does not work without a driver, ie. in BIOS or before a driver is installed/loaded. You don't need those capabilities then anyway.

I understand if some of this info is confidential, but I'm curious:
Does the keyboard send additional information per packet, or does it send additional packets following the first one to account for the additional keypresses? Any more information would be fascinating, but again I respect that some of this may be stuff you don't want leaking to competitors.

Also, the pressure touch system... I think I see what you did. The pressure touch system allowed voltage to vary continuously, rather than the standard on/off system. That way pressing harder caused a higher voltage (or capacitance.... not an EE ) to reach the controller, which detects it and outputs the correct information on how hard the key is pressed, which can be picked up by a program, yadda yadda. In the case of the X4 I'm guessing you put that varying voltage concept to a different use: determining which keys were actually pressed, and which are an artifact of the circuit layout. The keyboard's controller can thus figure out which keys the user meant to send, and which were a result of ghosting (the original definition).

But it isn't perfect, right? There's uncertainty involved. As the number of keys pressed increases the voltage variability probably increases as well. The margin of error increases. And past a certain point you have to start blocking keys again. Which is why you still can't claim NKRO.

Is that about right?
I'd buy that explanation if it is actually technically Anti-Ghosting in order to improve upon the N-Key Rollover.
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