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[Official] Mechanical Keyboard Guide - Page 204

post #2031 of 14564
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post
My order for the Majestouch Tactile Click NKRO and the keycap puller has shipped! Woo-hoo!!

The estimated delivery date is this Wednesday, the 10th! I can hardly wait!!!
About time

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpsgc View Post
Dumb question:

Would the Filco replacement WASD keys/Red Esc work with a 7G? Eh, crazy idea I know.
Yes they would. All Cherry MX switches have the same stem, therefore the keycaps are all switchable. The only trouble you might get is with different sized spacebars and shift keys and stuff like that.
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post #2032 of 14564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manyak View Post
About time



Yes they would. All Cherry MX switches have the same stem, therefore the keycaps are all switchable. The only trouble you might get is with different sized spacebars and shift keys and stuff like that.
The 7G and Filco keys should be pretty similar in size, but other cherry keycaps might be different shape. It will still fit, just not match with the rest.
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post #2033 of 14564
Thread Starter 
Oh yeah that's another thing - some keyboards have flat keys, some have sculpted keys. If you put a sculpted key among flat keys it'll end up kind of weird.
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post #2034 of 14564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manyak View Post
Oh yeah that's another thing - some keyboards have flat keys, some have sculpted keys. If you put a sculpted key among flat keys it'll end up kind of weird.
You could start a new keyboard modding revolution!
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post #2035 of 14564
Quote:
Originally Posted by twocables View Post
you could start a new keyboard modding revolution!
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post #2036 of 14564
G80-3000LSCRC-2 Mechanical MX Blue keyboard for sale in:

http://www.overclock.net/main-compon...ml#post8677761
post #2037 of 14564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manyak View Post
I was just reading up a bit more on the Sidewinder x4 and its NKRO. And ironically it seems that it actually does ghost. Like, in the real term of it (here):



No matter who tries to go over that 6+4 key limit, they get shot down.
Just saw this post and wanted to respond. If you read the information we have up on our site:

http://www.microsoft.com/appliedscie...eWinderX4.mspx

you'll see that we document the limitations of the X4 in some detail. The issue that the article refers to is not a keyboard problem. You hint at the actual problem - i.e. that software on the PC side has issues with large numbers of keys being reported via USB. As we note on our page, "...many Windows programs have issues when 12 or more keys are reported simultaneously". I have seen the same issue with other USB keyboards that can report this many keys. We are currently investigating to better understand exactly what is going on. But all indications are that the X4 is faithfully reporting keypresses, without ghosting (by any definition), subject to the limitations described on our page.

Anyhow, I hope this helps clear things up...
post #2038 of 14564
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulHDietz View Post
Just saw this post and wanted to respond. If you read the information we have up on our site:

http://www.microsoft.com/appliedscie...eWinderX4.mspx

you'll see that we document the limitations of the X4 in some detail. The issue that the article refers to is not a keyboard problem. You hint at the actual problem - i.e. that software on the PC side has issues with large numbers of keys being reported via USB. As we note on our page, "...many Windows programs have issues when 12 or more keys are reported simultaneously". I have seen the same issue with other USB keyboards that can report this many keys. We are currently investigating to better understand exactly what is going on. But all indications are that the X4 is faithfully reporting keypresses, without ghosting (by any definition), subject to the limitations described on our page.

Anyhow, I hope this helps clear things up...
Yeah I kind of figured that it wasn't that the controller was getting confused, so to speak, but that's it's got to do with whatever "hack" the people who worked on the USB side of things came up with. Just like you, so far every keyboard I've seen that attempts to circumvent the 6+4 key limit runs into some sort of problem. And I really doubt that people are messing up the matrix that badly
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post #2039 of 14564
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulHDietz View Post
Just saw this post and wanted to respond. If you read the information we have up on our site:

http://www.microsoft.com/appliedscie...eWinderX4.mspx

you'll see that we document the limitations of the X4 in some detail. The issue that the article refers to is not a keyboard problem. You hint at the actual problem - i.e. that software on the PC side has issues with large numbers of keys being reported via USB. As we note on our page, "...many Windows programs have issues when 12 or more keys are reported simultaneously". I have seen the same issue with other USB keyboards that can report this many keys. We are currently investigating to better understand exactly what is going on. But all indications are that the X4 is faithfully reporting keypresses, without ghosting (by any definition), subject to the limitations described on our page.

Anyhow, I hope this helps clear things up...
But there's only one true definition of "Ghosting", and that is when a character appears out of nowhere that you did not press or even accidentally press. This is why they call it "ghosting". I mean, it's a character that's appearing out of nowhere just like real ghosts do in real life (but let's not discuss whether or not ghosts really exist). That's why they decided upon the name or term, and that's why it makes sense.

But Microsoft's trying to say that it's called "ghosting" because some characters don't make it through and get lost and therefore become "ghosts". It just makes me sit there going "huh???" I mean, it doesn't make sense. A real-life ghost isn't a ghost because they disappeared and became lost or anything. A real-life ghost is a ghost because they appeared out of nowhere and aren't really supposed to be there.

So again: this isn't Anti-Ghosting. This is "Improved N-Key Rollover". Not only should it be called "Improved N-Key Rollover", but an explanation needs to be written that shows how most USB keyboards are much more limited than the Sidewinder X4 is. Of course, that explanation should also include what NKRO is.

Thanks to this, people like me will end up trying to tell somebody what NKRO is only to have them respond with "You're wrong! That's called Anti-Ghosting! I know because Microsoft says so!"

Can you somehow convince them to correct it?
Edited by TwoCables - 3/6/10 at 5:04pm
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It's a computer!
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
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250 GB Samsung 840 EVO (C:\) 250 GB Samsung 840 EVO (D:\) 150 GB WD VelociRaptor Samsung SH-S243N 24x DVD Burner 
Optical DriveCoolingOSMonitor
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KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Filco Majestouch 104-key Cherry MX Blues w/NKRO Corsair HX650 (Bronze, ordered on 12-12-2009) CM 690 Intellimouse Optical (1.1A) 1000Hz polling rate 
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post #2040 of 14564
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post
But there's only one true definition of "Ghosting", and that is when a character appears out of nowhere that you did not press or even accidentally press. This is why they call it "ghosting". I mean, it's a character that's appearing out of nowhere just like real ghosts do in real life (but let's not discuss whether or not ghosts really exist). That's why they decided upon the name or term, and that's why it makes sense.

But Microsoft's trying to say that it's called "ghosting" because some characters don't make it through and get lost and therefore become "ghosts". It just makes me sit there going "huh???" I mean, it doesn't make sense. A real-life ghost isn't a ghost because they disappeared and became lost or anything. A real-life ghost is a ghost because they appeared out of nowhere and aren't really supposed to be there.

So again: this isn't Anti-Ghosting. This is "Improved N-Key Rollover". Not only should it be called "Improved N-Key Rollover", but an explanation needs to be written that shows how most USB keyboards are much more limited than the Sidewinder X4 is. Of course, that explanation should also include what NKRO is.

Thanks to this, people like me will end up trying to tell somebody what NKRO is only to have them respond with "You're wrong! That's called Anti-Ghosting! I know because Microsoft says so!"

Can you somehow convince them to correct it?
Again, I completely get what you are saying and I am sympathetic, but our competitors (mass market gaming keyboard manufacturers) have redefined the terminology this way. Personally, I would have preferred a completely new term to avoid confusion. If you look at what the capabilities and limitations of the X4 are:

http://www.microsoft.com/appliedscie...eWinderX4.mspx

you can see it doesn't make sense to call it improved N-key rollover (NKRO). It's clearly not NKRO. I guess you could call it 17-key rollover, but with some limitations and improvements. But that sounds like a marketing nightmare.

For what it's worth, NKRO is a confusing term. Historically, it referred to the ability to correctly report keydown events in the order they are pressed despite typists who didn't release keys before pressing the next one. If you think about it, you could accomplish this on a USB keyboard by only reporting the most recent keys (i.e. stop reporting the less recently pressed keys, even though they are still depressed). Would you consider a keyboard that did this to have NKRO?

As a researcher, I thought it was important to clear up the confusion, and plainly state what the capabilities of SideWinder X4 actually are. While you may disagree with the terminology, at least we state what definition we are using. And just to show you how utterly reasonable we can be, I will see if we can add some information about the conflicting definitions that are in use.

Sound good?
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