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[Official] Mechanical Keyboard Guide - Page 57

post #561 of 14567
I was wondering how the Zero Series Filco's were. They say they're clicky XM white switches. Anyway to better explain this to me?

Link

Thanks!
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post #562 of 14567
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurr View Post
I was wondering how the Zero Series Filco's were. They say they're clicky XM white switches. Anyway to better explain this to me?

Link

Thanks!
They are stiff and pretty loud (stiffer and louder than IBMs), and their tactile bump is precise. Pretty nice to type on if you can get over the noise.
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post #563 of 14567
Il probably bring the "Otaku" to work as it isn't as noisy as the IBM.

Anyway what's "Topre Force" I see these boards retail for like $250, now that's really expensive and I heard it's still a rubber dome. What's the difference?
post #564 of 14567
Quote:
Originally Posted by xJumper View Post
Il probably bring the "Otaku" to work as it isn't as noisy as the IBM.

Anyway what's "Topre Force" I see these boards retail for like $250, now that's really expensive and I heard it's still a rubber dome. What's the difference?
From what I know, they are a very high quality rubber dome capacitive switch. Most of the resistance on the Topre switch keyboards seems to be the domes themselves, rather than the conical spring under the domes.

As I've never tried them, I can't say how good they are.
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post #565 of 14567
A little off topic, but has anybody ever used keyboard cover stickers? I'm planning on using blank stickers on the letter keys when I get my G81. I like a little bit of texture and I hate when keys rub off. (It would seem I secrete a special oil that magically erases all keyboard letters)
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post #566 of 14567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manyak View Post
It's not the matrix itself, it's the frequency at which the controller scans it. And by controller I mean the electronics within the keyboard itself, so even an adapter won't fix it.
I'm not familiar with the DAS but this sentence is not the whole story. Most keyboards/keypads scan at a pretty fast rate (25 to 50 times per second is pretty typically). Where the bottleneck usually occurs is moving the data to the PC (and moving the data through the OS to the application).

In the case of PS/2, the keyboard is the master and the data is sent to the PC pretty much immediately. It might take a couple of milliseconds.

In the case of USB, the PC is the master and it polls the keypad at a rate according to the USB descriptors for the device. Most keyboards are low-speed USB devices and the poll rate is almost always 10ms. There are a few full-speed keyboards and keypads around, but I can't think of any names off the top of my head.

There is a thread on here about mouse speed and they do direct comparison between USB and PS/2.
http://www.overclock.net/computer-pe...ouse-rate.html
post #567 of 14567
Quote:
Originally Posted by xJumper View Post
Il probably bring the "Otaku" to work as it isn't as noisy as the IBM.

Anyway what's "Topre Force" I see these boards retail for like $250, now that's really expensive and I heard it's still a rubber dome. What's the difference?
If you ever want to sell it, I might be interested once I get some more money rollin' in
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post #568 of 14567
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xJumper View Post
Il probably bring the "Otaku" to work as it isn't as noisy as the IBM.

Anyway what's "Topre Force" I see these boards retail for like $250, now that's really expensive and I heard it's still a rubber dome. What's the difference?
They are rubber domes with springs underneath, but work in a different way than other rubber domes. Instead of having a contact pad underneath that connects membranes together, it has a spring that changes the circuit's capacitance as you press the key downwards. So the weakest point of rubber domes is changed to a mechanism that can't wear out because there's no physical contact needed.

Also, like mechanical switches, they are made so that you get the tactile bump and actuation about halfway down the keystroke instead of at the bottom like other domes. You can also pick exactly how stiff you want them, all the way from 35g (the lightest switches I know of in manufactured boards).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimwest View Post
A little off topic, but has anybody ever used keyboard cover stickers? I'm planning on using blank stickers on the letter keys when I get my G81. I like a little bit of texture and I hate when keys rub off. (It would seem I secrete a special oil that magically erases all keyboard letters)
I've used stickers for arabic lettering, but I didn't put them on the top of the keys, I put them on the front. I just didn't like the way they feel.

If you want keys that never wear out (at least not within the board's lifetime) look for boards with double-shot molding or dye sublimation printing. Double shot molding makes the letters actual pieces of plastic that go all the way through, and dye sublimation is where the dye sinks into the plastic and becomes part of it. Just to give you an idea of exactly how long these last - double shot molding was used a lot on super old '60s and '70s typewriters, and dye sublimation was used on the IBM model M. Today, 25-50 years later, the lettering still shows.

Cherry uses all types of printing on their boards (these two, lasering, and silk screening), and I know VCheeZ had a few double-shot molded ones, so if you ordered from him you might be in luck. Either way, when you get it, if you aren't sure what type of printing is used take a really close up picture of the letter and the underside of the key and I'll let you know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grantb5 View Post
I'm not familiar with the DAS but this sentence is not the whole story. Most keyboards/keypads scan at a pretty fast rate (25 to 50 times per second is pretty typically). Where the bottleneck usually occurs is moving the data to the PC (and moving the data through the OS to the application).

In the case of PS/2, the keyboard is the master and the data is sent to the PC pretty much immediately. It might take a couple of milliseconds.

In the case of USB, the PC is the master and it polls the keypad at a rate according to the USB descriptors for the device. Most keyboards are low-speed USB devices and the poll rate is almost always 10ms. There are a few full-speed keyboards and keypads around, but I can't think of any names off the top of my head.

There is a thread on here about mouse speed and they do direct comparison between USB and PS/2.
http://www.overclock.net/computer-pe...ouse-rate.html
While you are mostly correct (except the default polling rate is 125Hz, or 8ms, and most keyboards actually scan the matrix at several kHz), It's not that the Das keyboard is laggy. It's that if you type really fast or press two consecutive keys really fast the keyboard will transpose letters on you. The word "fling" can come out as "filgn". This has nothing to do with the speed of the connection to the PC, only the speed of the matrix scanning and the algorithm used. This was also admitted by the CEO as a problem, and if I can find the quote again I'll come back and edit this post with a link.

And if you want some proper information about PS/2 vs USB, check out these:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t...+USB+ms&page=2
http://www.computer-engineering.org/ps2protocol/
http://www.computer-engineering.org/ps2keyboard/
http://www.beyondlogic.org/usbnutshell/usb1.htm
http://www.beyondlogic.org/keyboard/keybrd.htm

It's a lot of info that boils down to two things when it comes to speed: PS/2 has a shorter delay to first keystroke (and then some). So when you first press a key it appears on the screen faster than USB. However, USB has a higher overall bandwidth, so theoretically you can press more keys within a shorter amount of time - but no human can type fast enough to reach the limit of even PS/2.
Edited by Manyak - 8/24/09 at 3:13pm
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post #569 of 14567
OH SNAP! Found an old IMB Model M in the back of the office! Sounds like a paperclip is loose inside of it so I hope it still works! I'm pretty excited that I found one!
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post #570 of 14567
thanks manyak fer writing this you were the reason i needed a mechanical keyboard, you opened my eyes
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