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[Official] OCN Headphones and Earphones Club - Page 1254

post #12531 of 37786
Quote:
Originally Posted by pez View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by OkanG View Post

Well, that's good to know.. My headset, iTunes and Windows Master volume are from like 10%-25%.. Why do you recommend them all at 100% to give the DAC full control? I'm not using the DAC to control volume, because it's actually behing my monitor. Less cables and clutter on my table biggrin.gif

There's probably a more technical explanation for it, but what you're doing is making your source produce its maximum output. SImilar to using Line-Out on an iPhone. Line-Out on the iPhone will override everything and use the built-in DAC, automatically maxing the volume and letting you control volume from the amp, or whatever you're using in between the iPhone and your headphones, speakers, etc.

EDIT:

For disclaimer, sorry if some of the terms I'm using are a bit sketchy. I'm trying to remember all of these details from before redface.gif.

Two different things.
Software volume control (Click to show)
If you are controlling volume in software, what you're doing is scaling down the amplitude of the values sent to the digital-to-analog converter (DAC). This effectively reduces the signal-to-noise ratio of the system. You're scaling down the signal but not really the noise.

Let's imagine we have a DAC that can output values between -10 to 10 "units", where the noise is on average about +/- 0.001 units and riding on top of any wanted signal. The loudest signal the DAC can output goes between -10 to 10, which is a lot more than the noise so you probably won't hear the noise at all. If you use software volume control, you're just dividing all the signal levels (but not the noise, at least not by the same factor). So maybe the range of all the outputs becomes -1 to 1 in the greatest. And in a quiet section, maybe it's a whole lot less, like -0.05 to 0.05 (without volume control: -0.50 to 0.50). With the volume control, the SNR can be bad enough in the worst spots to be an issue, maybe.

In practice, there's some extra leeway with 24-bit hardware even playing back 16-bit music, so long as the hardware's noise floor is effectively below the 16 bits. Also, noise may not be constant with output level. But the E7 is 16-bit output only.
iPod line-out dock (Click to show)
As for an iPod line-out dock, that's to bypass the internal amp and get the signal more directly from the internal DAC. If you're connecting the iPod to another amplifier, there's no need to run the signal through the internal amplifier and go through that (very small) loss in fidelity. Actually, it's not such a big deal.

All that said, some kind of decrease in SNR may not be a big deal. Use whatever volume control is convenient for you. But because you might as well do things the right way and get slightly better sound, I suggest the following:

Turn up the volume in all software and then turn down the E7's volume control (which operates after the DAC) from omg-way-too-loud down to whatever is as loud as you'd ever want. Leave the E7 at that setting forever, and then use the software volume control for all day-to-day adjustments. That way you let E7 handle most of the attenuation after the DAC, so you can better SNR. The noise from the electronics -> acoustic noise out the headphones should hopefully be under the ambient acoustic noise of the room then, which is what you want.
post #12532 of 37786
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeaj View Post

Two different things. Software volume control (Click to show)
If you are controlling volume in software, what you're doing is scaling down the amplitude of the values sent to the digital-to-analog converter (DAC). This effectively reduces the signal-to-noise ratio of the system. You're scaling down the signal but not really the noise.
Let's imagine we have a DAC that can output values between -10 to 10 "units", where the noise is on average about +/- 0.001 units and riding on top of any wanted signal. The loudest signal the DAC can output goes between -10 to 10, which is a lot more than the noise so you probably won't hear the noise at all. If you use software volume control, you're just dividing all the signal levels (but not the noise, at least not by the same factor). So maybe the range of all the outputs becomes -1 to 1 in the greatest. And in a quiet section, maybe it's a whole lot less, like -0.05 to 0.05 (without volume control: -0.50 to 0.50). With the volume control, the SNR can be bad enough in the worst spots to be an issue, maybe.
In practice, there's some extra leeway with 24-bit hardware even playing back 16-bit music, so long as the hardware's noise floor is effectively below the 16 bits. Also, noise may not be constant with output level. But the E7 is 16-bit output only.
iPod line-out dock (Click to show)
As for an iPod line-out dock, that's to bypass the internal amp and get the signal more directly from the internal DAC. If you're connecting the iPod to another amplifier, there's no need to run the signal through the internal amplifier and go through that (very small) loss in fidelity. Actually, it's not such a big deal.
All that said, some kind of decrease in SNR may not be a big deal. Use whatever volume control is convenient for you. But because you might as well do things the right way and get slightly better sound, I suggest the following:
Turn up the volume in all software and then turn down the E7's volume control (which operates after the DAC) from omg-way-too-loud down to whatever is as loud as you'd ever want. Leave the E7 at that setting forever, and then use the software volume control for all day-to-day adjustments. That way you let E7 handle most of the attenuation after the DAC, so you can better SNR. The noise from the electronics -> acoustic noise out the headphones should hopefully be under the ambient acoustic noise of the room then, which is what you want.

Yeah, but my problem is that I actually can't use software (Windows Master Volume) to adjust the sound from my computer after getting the Fiio E7. That is what I used to do anyways, when it worked.
 
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post #12533 of 37786
Yeah, the E7 locks it to 100%. I meant volume control on a program-by-program basis (or maybe there's some kind of VST plugin workaround or something else), which is a hassle.
post #12534 of 37786
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeaj View Post

Yeah, the E7 locks it to 100%. I meant volume control on a program-by-program basis (or maybe there's some kind of VST plugin workaround or something else), which is a hassle.

It would be nice of it to lock it, I can still adjust the volume. It just seems like it ignores it, like I'm adjusting the volume of some other non-existing source biggrin.gif
 
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post #12535 of 37786
Consider what an amp does. It takes a source and amplifies it similar to how you can enlarge an image in photoshop. Does the picture look great when you take a 100x100 image and "amp" it to 500x500? Or does a 250x250 image "Amped" to 500x500 look better?

The 100x100 is your computer volume at 25% The 250x250 image is your volume at 100%.
Edited by Simca - 1/8/13 at 4:56pm
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post #12536 of 37786
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simca View Post

Consider what an amp does. It takes a source and amplifies it similar to how you can enlarge an image in photoshop. Does the picture look great when you take a 100x100 image and "amp" it to 500x500? Or does a 250x250 image "Amped" to 500x500 look better?
The 100x100 is your computer volume at 25% The 250x250 image is your volume at 100%.

So you think the opposite? The Windows Master Volume level should be at 25~%?
 
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post #12537 of 37786
Quote:
Originally Posted by OkanG View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simca View Post

Consider what an amp does. It takes a source and amplifies it similar to how you can enlarge an image in photoshop. Does the picture look great when you take a 100x100 image and "amp" it to 500x500? Or does a 250x250 image "Amped" to 500x500 look better?
The 100x100 is your computer volume at 25% The 250x250 image is your volume at 100%.

So you think the opposite? The Windows Master Volume level should be at 25~%?

Did you flippin' read what I typed?
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post #12538 of 37786
Using two volumes controls makes no sense, crank one fully and use the other. Better yet use WASPI or ASIO and just the volume pot on your amp/dac.
    
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post #12539 of 37786
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simca View Post

Did you flippin' read what I typed?

I seem to have misunderstood it, and I thoroughly apologize. I guess there's no such excuse in here to being tired and misreading something, since I have to get attacked in such a manner solely for not understanding your post.
 
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post #12540 of 37786
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simca View Post

Did you flippin' read what I typed?

I seem to have misunderstood it, and I thoroughly apologize. I guess there's no such excuse in here to being tired and misreading something, since I have to get attacked in such a manner solely for not understanding your post.

EDIT: wow, quad-post. I clicked once..
 
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[EK] 1/4" Fittings [EK] DDC X-Res CSQ Top/Res combo [Laing] DDC-3 10W Pump [XSPC] Razor Block + Backplate 
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[XSPC] 1/4" White Tubing [HW Labs] GTS 360 Lite Rad [Corsair] 3x SP120 Quiet Edition Rad Fans [Corsair] 1x AF120 Quiet Edition Case Fan 
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[Windows] 8 64-bit [Philips] 27E LSB [Corsair] Vengeance K90 [OCZ] 600W 
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[Corsair] 600t SE [Corsair] M90 [Cooler Master] Storm XL Mousepad [Beyerdynamic] DT990 Pro 250Ohm 
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[Fiio] E7 [Phobya] Touch 6 Fan Controller 
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