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post #24311 of 38373
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjj226 Angel View Post


OHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh myyyyyyyyyyyyyy goooooooodddddddddddddddd. Please shut up. You just have no idea what you are talking about.

This is a horrible way to respond to a post when you have an alternative opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by friend'scatdied View Post

Except he does and is right...

Excepting output impedance any competent circuit (practically speaking, just about anything worth discussing) will operate well enough on voltage swing and slew rate that no other factors are worth discussing.

The only possibility is the introduction of nonlinear distortion (e.g. THD, IMD) during playback but this is a dubious contention and hasn't been validated in practice.

"Tube sound" for example is part placebo and part output impedance skewing FR to the impedance curve.

This on the other hand is much better. State your opinion and why you think that way.

I get tired of some of the outspoken people in a few of the groups I frequent who just post, NO, Don't or something similar and don't state why.
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post #24312 of 38373
You
Quote:
Originally Posted by friend'scatdied View Post

Except he does and is right...

Excepting output impedance any competent circuit (practically speaking, just about anything worth discussing) will operate well enough on voltage swing and slew rate that no other factors are worth discussing.

The only possibility is the introduction of nonlinear distortion (e.g. THD, IMD) during playback but this is a dubious contention and hasn't been validated in practice.

"Tube sound" for example is part placebo and part output impedance skewing FR to the impedance curve.

Here is a real quick down and dirty way of solving this debate one and for all.

Amp Synergy: Chinese Kiwi already proved that this already exists in a very small way. Output impedance is an intrinsic factor of a amplifier. IDK how you can convince yourself that output impedance matching is not the same as amp synergy. You would literally be arguing semantics.

Let me put it another way. An OTL amp is going to sound pretty bad if you have low impedance headphones. If you use headphones with high impedance, then the amp will sound better.

Rather than trying to sit here every single day and give lectures about impedance, we can simply sum it up in a nice package and call it synergy.

If you guys really wanted to make an argument against synergy, then you could argue that people on head-fi will say crazy crap about how the audio technica M50s and the O2 amp pair so well that they make a sound that rivals the Sr-009s and the BHSE. The people who take synergy to an extreme are wrong, but that is also why they are called extremists

swapping tubes: Go find some cheap chinese tubes for your stax amp and then swap them out to some decent british ones and report back.
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post #24313 of 38373
Quote:
Originally Posted by silvrr View Post

This is a horrible way to respond to a post when you have an alternative opinion.
This on the other hand is much better. State your opinion and why you think that way.

I get tired of some of the outspoken people in a few of the groups I frequent who just post, NO, Don't or something similar and don't state why.

I do not care. I have grown very tired of people who think they know more because they sit at their computers and research this crap rather than getting up and exploring audio first hand.

All it takes is 1 audio convention to through most of the scientific approach right out the bloody window.

Plus, this is also the same guy who thinks that a good EQ and software is the answer to getting the best performance out of a audio chain.
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post #24314 of 38373
Quote:
Originally Posted by friend'scatdied View Post

The only possibility is the introduction of nonlinear distortion (e.g. THD, IMD) during playback but this is a dubious contention and hasn't been validated in practice.

Sometimes OTL tube amp IMD is in whole numbers percentage range at reasonable listening levels with some headphones, so that should be audible too. Noise levels of some amps are audible on many headphones too. I'm fairly certain you could grab say a Bottlehead Crack, EQ out the FR differences, and still have it sound different for a decent range of headphones. This could be readily tested, anyhow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjj226 Angel View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by silvrr View Post

This is a horrible way to respond to a post when you have an alternative opinion.
This on the other hand is much better. State your opinion and why you think that way.

I get tired of some of the outspoken people in a few of the groups I frequent who just post, NO, Don't or something similar and don't state why.

I do not care. I have grown very tired of people who think they know more because they sit at their computers and research this crap rather than getting up and exploring audio first hand.

All it takes is 1 audio convention to through most of the scientific approach right out the bloody window.

Plus, this is also the same guy who thinks that a good EQ and software is the answer to getting the best performance out of a audio chain.

Since when do audio conventions throw the scientific approach out the window? In every serious field of study involving humans, including audio, people apply the scientific method and rigorous testing to find out more about how stuff works. If peoples' gut feelilngs or anecdotes disagree with better testing and you're throwing out the latter, there's probably something wrong with how you're weighing the information. There's no substitute for experience, but people are pretty bad at incorrectly interpreting their own experiences and drawing conclusions from them in many areas.

Sometimes people think they know something for whatever reason and are mistaken. It happens to everyone. Just as you say there are people who just read things (and many who don't understand what they read), there are those who experience a lot and get the wrong ideas from those experiences.

For a given hardware setup, corrective EQ does help? That's what they do with In professional installations with speakers and what lots of people do at home. There's even research for headphones demonstrating listeners liking the sound more after EQ is applied (preference goes down for certain EQs, up with others), and that's using good headphones to begin with.
post #24315 of 38373
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjj226 Angel View Post

Amp Synergy: Chinese Kiwi already proved that this already exists in a very small way. Output impedance is an intrinsic factor of a amplifier. IDK how you can convince yourself that output impedance matching is not the same as amp synergy. You would literally be arguing semantics.

Let me put it another way. An OTL amp is going to sound pretty bad if you have low impedance headphones. If you use headphones with high impedance, then the amp will sound better.

swapping tubes: Go find some cheap chinese tubes for your stax amp and then swap them out to some decent british ones and report back.
For all intents and purposes that kind of "synergy" is simply damping factor. This is simply load impedance/output impedance, and you want this ratio to be as high as possible. An ideal output impedance should be 1/50 of the load impedance or less.

A low damping factor (high output impedance with low load impedance) can produce frequency response deviations of 5dB or greater, so yes a high damping factor is highly desirable for ideal transducer response.

The "tube rolling" can only be of significance if the tube perceivably changes aspects of the circuit, generally amounting to varying presence of nonlinear distortion. My Stax amp is actually solid state.

A competently-designed tube amplifier will sound the same as a competently-designed solid state amplifier. Bob Carver validated this years ago. The benefit of solid state is less required maintenance (virtually none) and higher durability.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjj226 Angel View Post

I do not care. I have grown very tired of people who think they know more because they sit at their computers and research this crap rather than getting up and exploring audio first hand.

All it takes is 1 audio convention to through most of the scientific approach right out the bloody window.

Plus, this is also the same guy who thinks that a good EQ and software is the answer to getting the best performance out of a audio chain.
We're all friends here and I think it's a little insulting to insinuate that any of us are armchair quarterbacks. I've personally owned tens of thousands of dollars of audio gear over the years to arrive to where I am presently.

The problem with audio conventions are at least twofold. Meet conditions are far from ideal for facilitating comparisons. Additionally, most "DBT" at such conventions are crude facsimiles of the scientific method at best. I was horrified to learn on several occasions that people were willing to match volume "by ear" and that no one possessed the appropriate tools to normalize output levels.

The latter problem can be illustrated fairly simply by trying a simple EQ/pre-cut gain of +2.0dB on your favorite media player. Toggling this +2.0dB on/off will demonstrate a simple 2dB increase translating to what many audiophools might describe as more "vivid, detailed, articulate" (or numerous other buzzwords) relative to the normal listening level.

As an aside, EQ is actually often essential for ideal loudspeaker response in many non-ideal rooms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeaj View Post

Sometimes OTL tube amp IMD is in whole numbers percentage range at reasonable listening levels with some headphones, so that should be audible too. Noise levels of some amps are audible on many headphones too. I'm fairly certain you could grab say a Bottlehead Crack, EQ out the FR differences, and still have it sound different for a decent range of headphones. This could be readily tested, anyhow.
Yes.
Edited by friend'scatdied - 4/2/14 at 10:06am
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post #24316 of 38373
Hey sorry for my inactivity guys. IRL is busy currently and takes priority.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjj226 Angel View Post


OHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh myyyyyyyyyyyyyy goooooooodddddddddddddddd. Please shut up. You just have no idea what you are talking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjj226 Angel View Post

I do not care. I have grown very tired of people who think they know more because they sit at their computers and research this crap rather than getting up and exploring audio first hand.

All it takes is 1 audio convention to through most of the scientific approach right out the bloody window.

Plus, this is also the same guy who thinks that a good EQ and software is the answer to getting the best performance out of a audio chain.

There is honestly no place in this thread for this sort of comment/post or reaction. If you don't like what someone says, please simply post that you disagree and why. This sort of reaction is simply not helpful to anyone and invites unwanted attention from moderators, which I always want to avoid. EQ is also the easiest and best way to tune the sound to how you want it without buying different colored headphones, amps, or sources. I have personally used EQ to tune songs that hurt my ears so I personally know it is effective. Is it always ideal? No, but it is often the best option in terms of price/value. Would you rather buy a new pair of brighter headphones or tweak the treble provided it doesn't introduce any negative distortion you can hear. This is just my opinion and experience. As far as Chinesekiwi goes, I don't know his credentials, but I do also trust his knowledge and experience as well as mikej and friend'scatdied just as I trust yours, Totally Dubbed, Simca, ect. We all have our personal experiences and considering the subjectivity of audio, we should all respect each other as well.
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post #24317 of 38373
Except yeah as stated I'm right:

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT70250Ohm.pdf

and this:

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AudezeLCD2sn53211704circa2012.pdf

Notice how the curves compensates for the different isolation factors.

and this:

http://rinchoi.blogspot.com/2010/05/headphone-equalization.html

and Angel is right, your ears do affect the response, but not until after 750Hz:

HRTF.gif

or after 175 Hz, depending on what study you use:

2008DF.gif

For a kid below 4, you can take away the ear canal factor as the ear canal bends and shapes as you get older otherwise you are born with it fairly flat.
Also listened to plenty of gear thanks, both speakers and headphones. In fact, I listened to some 1979 STAX Lambda's last week.

What I do know is basic electrical engineering, basic computer science and basic psychoacoustics.
post #24318 of 38373
Quote:
Originally Posted by friend'scatdied View Post

The problem with audio conventions are at least twofold. Meet conditions are far from ideal for facilitating comparisons. Additionally, most "DBT" at such conventions are crude facsimiles of the scientific method at best. I was horrified to learn on several occasions that people were willing to match volume "by ear" and that no one possessed the appropriate tools to normalize output levels.

the DBT methodology is fine, the execution of it by some people as you stated however can be hugely flawed. It's silly to dismiss a car's performance by how someone who is inexperienced at driving drives with it.
Also if Angel actually read the study that the EZQ plugin is based on...not to mention the plugin is created by a guy who worked on the audio side of the ISO mp4 standard..... i.e. ain't just no random hobbyist.
post #24319 of 38373
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinesekiwi View Post

the DBT methodology is fine, the execution of it by some people as you stated however can be hugely flawed. It's silly to dismiss a car's performance by how someone who is inexperienced at driving drives with it.

Hence my use of quotation marks around DBT and referring to their execution as a crude facsimile of the scientific method.

Participation in appropriately-controlled DBT is precisely what leads me to my present opinions. Worrying about the upstream is just silly.
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post #24320 of 38373
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinesekiwi View Post

Except yeah as stated I'm right:

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT70250Ohm.pdf

and this:

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AudezeLCD2sn53211704circa2012.pdf

Notice how the curves compensates for the different isolation factors.

and this:

http://rinchoi.blogspot.com/2010/05/headphone-equalization.html

and Angel is right, your ears do affect the response, but not until after 750Hz:

HRTF.gif

or after 175 Hz, depending on what study you use:

2008DF.gif

For a kid below 4, you can take away the ear canal factor as the ear canal bends and shapes as you get older otherwise you are born with it fairly flat.
Also listened to plenty of gear thanks, both speakers and headphones. In fact, I listened to some 1979 STAX Lambda's last week.

What I do know is basic electrical engineering, basic computer science and basic psychoacoustics.

Fine. If we want to be scientific about things, lets be scientific.

Before anything is said I would like to point out that a lot of the things you keep linking are based a lot hypothetical situations. For instance your ear canals will start messing with the frequency much sooner because of residual fluids and matter, potential skin irritation, possible mutations in the genes that changes a particular individuals ear canal, and so on.

A lot of this "science" is based off of very generalized scientific models that come with a certain amount of error. And even further more still is that a lot of this "data" about various headphones and amps are not coming from 3rd party pier reviewed labs. They are coming from a few guys who bought some very expensive equipment probably from someones basement who could very well be getting paid by these companies to skew the data.

Anyways.

Please answer the question I have been asking you since day one. Why is it that the amps that test the best often times sound like garbage?

You have given me answers such as 'well sometimes people do not like that type of sound signature'.

No, that is only half of the right answer. In fact most of this bull crap that comes from inner fidelity is only half the story.

The other half of the story is not what your psyche likes, but what your brain actually likes. Factors such as how are your ear going to intemperate the sound, how is your brain going to react, what sort of neuro chemicals will be released and how many neuro receptors will be triggered to send the message to various parts of the brain that something sounds good or bad.

Guess what. To my knowledge, there is no way of figuring out how the brain responds to sonic stimuli to the point where we can tell if something will honestly sound good or not.

Here is the kicker. All the performance numbers can also act as a very powerful placebo just like everything else you are denouncing. If you believe that a product will sound good because of all the nice graphs that it makes, then it will probably sound good.

The in turn you say that something like tube rolling is a placebo effect when in reality, most tubes are physically different from one and other.

Go look at the common 12ax7 tube. There are slight variations in the tubes. There are tubes with clear tops, black glass, smooth plate, ribbed plate, gray plate, black plate, there are special JAN tubes that were made slightly different so they would last longer and be more reliable, there are tubes in which the plate has a slight curve to it, the list goes on and on and on.

There is not a single physicist that I know would look at two tubes and tell me they perform exactly the same.
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