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[Official] OCN Headphones and Earphones Club - Page 2455

post #24541 of 38132
Quote:
Originally Posted by bumblebee1980 View Post


displays are measured using a colourimeter.

 

Yes, I understand that, but that wasn't my point. :p Imagine if we're looking at graphics cards and OCN community is split 50/50 on whether the GTX Titan Z is faster than the $350 GTX 770. That's kind of what we're at in audio, which I find amusing. Granted, audio is more subjective, but if audio is subjective, so are visuals. So why don't we have this uncertainty about which monitor is better? Even if we have two monitors of the same resolution and panel technology, color varies. 

 

I guess my analogy isn't perfect though.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeaj View Post

I think the point is that the attitudes and approaches tend to be a bit different on average (with many exceptions, of course), and there may be more conflicting messages**. You bring up colorimeters, for one. Most people with high-end displays or projector setups, home theater buffs, etc. are calibrating very expensive display equipment. You frequently don't see audiophiles EQing their high-end setups, especially with headphones.

** well, you apparently do find this stuff in every enthusiast group, but possibly not to the same extents.

Aren't headphones supposed to be good right out of the box? Granted, headphones have different characteristics, like HD800 I heard are strong on the treble and a little weaker on the bass. Could we say that this is the fault of the headphones? I mean, in a perfect headphone everything would be reproduced exactly as it was recorded so by default that means no calibration is required. Guess you could say the same for monitors though.

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post #24542 of 38132
It's important to note that everything that is audible is measurable, while the converse is not necessarily true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeaj View Post

I think the point is that the attitudes and approaches tend to be a bit different on average (with many exceptions, of course), and there may be more conflicting messages**.

No substitute for experience in my experience (uhhh). An audiophile who's been to a dozen audio shows would be waxing the same bollocks if he conversed with a future version of himself after a dozen more. But if he conversed with a future version of himself after participation in a properly-controlled DBT, he'd be speaking with a changed (and enlightened) man.
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post #24543 of 38132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwizzie View Post

Aren't headphones supposed to be good right out of the box? Granted, headphones have different characteristics, like HD800 I heard are strong on the treble and a little weaker on the bass. Could we say that this is the fault of the headphones? I mean, in a perfect headphone everything would be reproduced exactly as it was recorded so by default that means no calibration is required. Guess you could say the same for monitors though.
A lot of people (including me) like some color. Perfectly flat response is not for me!
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post #24544 of 38132
Quote:
Originally Posted by friend'scatdied View Post

It's important to note that everything that is audible is measurable, while the converse is not necessarily true.

Why is the converse of that important?

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post #24545 of 38132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwizzie View Post

Why is the converse of that important?

Two different products might measure differently at 1KHz (or even a broadband range), with one exhibiting a THD of 0.04% and the other a THD of 0.0012%. This difference is measurable, but will not be audible.

This is also true if two products only differ within 0.2dB throughout the audible range.

Many other cases apply.
Edited by friend'scatdied - 4/15/14 at 1:50pm
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post #24546 of 38132
Thread Starter 
I hate when all these 'scientific' arguments get brought up. Sure I see their purpose, but at some point, your ears are going to give you a telltale sign of which you like better.

There's going to be some subtle differences with different pairings, and that's what ultimately lets people know what they like. Trying to argue your setup is better because science says so or because you say so, because your opinion is better and of more value just becomes silly and makes you look like a fool. These are why meets are important. They let you experience systems that you aren't used to; use headphones that some only dream of owning/hearing. It helps you reduce your bias (or not).

Some people's bias get in the way, here, at Head-fi; all over. I try to give my own personal experiences in a manner that's unbiased, and not try to assume about products I haven't even heard. Different people perceive different products in different ways.

Don't forget that ears are as unique as fingerprints.
 
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post #24547 of 38132
Quote:
Originally Posted by pez View Post

I hate when all these 'scientific' arguments get brought up. Sure I see their purpose, but at some point, your ears are going to give you a telltale sign of which you like better.


Your ears are useless outside of blind testing though. It's just too easy to convince yourself that you can hear something that isn't there... and the people who think they don't do that tend to be the ones doing it the most.
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post #24548 of 38132
*puts on LCD-2's* LOUD NOISES! thumb.gif
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post #24549 of 38132
Quote:
Originally Posted by pez View Post

I hate when all these 'scientific' arguments get brought up. Sure I see their purpose, but at some point, your ears are going to give you a telltale sign of which you like better.

Or it'll be your eyes and/or brain being subjected to expectation bias, aesthetic appeal or even sentimentality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy9000 View Post

Your ears are useless outside of blind testing though. It's just too easy to convince yourself that you can hear something that isn't there... and the people who think they don't do that tend to be the ones doing it the most.
Well said. Ambient noise, expectation bias, post-purchase rationalization, and groupthink are all very real phenomena that render hi-fi meets useless for detecting upstream differences. They're great for tasting headphones though.
Edited by friend'scatdied - 4/15/14 at 4:38pm
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post #24550 of 38132
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy9000 View Post

Your ears are useless outside of blind testing though. It's just too easy to convince yourself that you can hear something that isn't there... and the people who think they don't do that tend to be the ones doing it the most.
Quote:
Originally Posted by friend'scatdied View Post

Or it'll be your eyes and/or brain being subjected to expectation bias, aesthetic appeal or even sentimentality.
Well said. Ambient noise, expectation bias, post-purchase rationalization, and groupthink are all very real phenomena that render hi-fi meets useless for detecting upstream differences. They're great for tasting headphones though.

Meanwhile, you guys argue a point I'm not trying to make. I'm not trying to get that into detail with it. I appreciate both your's appreciation to the scientific approach to it, but it's just not how I personally approach it.

Sure, on paper, things may look fantastic, but when did it become so wrong to have preferences?

I'm open minded enough to admit what I honestly can't tell the difference between, and what I can. I can tell a difference between a Modi DAC and the DAC of my TiHD. I can also tell the difference in the Magnum DAC I have. At that accord, I noticed the glaring differences, and probably not so much the subtle ones; and even when I think I hear subtle differences, I chalk it up to testing error (different volumes, USB vs. sound card, etc.).
 
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