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post #101 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by OJX
All the people who say that Blu-ray is stupid and unnecessary are in fact what they stated about it. How can you be ignorant towards leaps of technology? If this was 15 years ago you would be still telling people how cassette tapes and VCRs will never be replaced and how CDs and DVDs have unnecessary amounts of data and are too expensive, grow up and go play your bulky record player while I listen to my nice slick MP3 player.
Don't be an idiot. Buying into vendor marketing and labeling as luddites anyone who disagrees with you is asinine. I have gone over this so many times in these forums that it is beginning to sound like rote, but what the hell...one more time.

First, the DVD format is not played out. The overwhelming majority, and I mean OVERWHELMING majority, of PS2 and Xbox games fit comfortably on a 4.7 GB DVD-R. And of the few that do require a DVD9, the majority of those only require DVD9 because of the extra non-game crap that is thrown onto the disc (movies, trailers, demos, etc.) In other words, in the five-odd years that console games have been DVD based, game developers have yet to utilize more then 50% of the existing DVD storage capacity.

Second: One commonly stated belief is that the increased storage availability will translate into developers suddenly deciding to store a jillion uber-hires textures that blow away the graphics of anything we have seen to date. Well first, they could store more textures today if they wanted on DVD (see #1). But even moreso, look at PC games. PC games are not constrained by the limiits of any media at all; a developer could ship a game on four DVDs if he wanted, PC gamers are used to that (and can install the whole 30+ GB game to hard drive if they want to). And yet, oddly, no developers have done this...hmm, I wonder why. Maybe because you don't need to? Does anyone really think that a PS3 game is going to look better than Half-Life 2 on a PC, which fits nicely on a single DVD, simply because it's on a Blu-Ray disc? Puh-lease!

Third: Piggybacking on #2, some people are under the impression that higher storage optical discs will allow developers to store uncompresed textures, resulting in better quality. That's a fallacy for two reasons: a) There are many rendering effects (e.g. antialiasing) in use these days that alter the texture on-the-fly, and these have far more impact on the final display than any minor corruptions from a lossy compression format. (And I doubt a developer would use a lossy compression format anyway. Back in the day it was all Run Length Encoding, which was lossless. I'm sure they still use lossless algorithms today, just with better compression factors.) And b) In any system, the I/O is the bottleneck, and optical disc I/O is some of the slowest there is. It is in the developers best interest to minimize disc reads, and guess what...compressed data can be read faster because it has a smaller disc footprint. It is demonstrably faster to read compressed data and uncompress it on the fly with a fast and underutilized CPU than it is to read five times as much uncompressed data while that CPU sits idle. (Do not confuse this with the Doom 3 Ultra mode, where the textures are uncompressed in video RAM. Big difference.)

Fourth: Not that this has any bearing to the X360, but since you're arguing for Blu-Ray: HD-DVD is better than Blu-Ray for consumers. HD-DVDs can be pressed on the same manufacturing equipment currently used to press DVDs. Blu-Rays require new equipment because they are constructed so differently. That means more startup money by the manufacturers, and costs are always passed on to the consumers. Don't believe that will happen? Take a look at what a UMD movie costs. They are always, always more expensive than their DVD counterpart. For something that can only be played on a PSP! Insane!

Also, arguing that Sony should be allowed to foist yet another proprietary storage media on us is choosing to ignore Sonys poor history in this regard. You say I would still be advocating VHS? Well, you're backing the wonderful people who brought us Betamax...and that MiniDisc thing...and now that lovely little UMD monstrosity (which I despise, maybe you don't). Maybe it's not fair to judge them this way, but people who ignore history are destined to repeat it.

And before the mantra that "Blu-Ray has more storage" is chanted, I don't want to hear it for a couple of reasons. A hi-def movie fits just fine on a HD-DVD. And the technology to create dual-layer HD-DVDs exists right now, but dual-layer Blu-Rays remain conceptual vaporware. I'm sure they will come someday, but as of this very moment, HD-DVDs can be made that have larger storage than the available Blu-Rays.

Yikes, what a rant. I need to save a link to this post so I can stop rewriting it every time this nonsense comes up.
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post #102 of 124
Whoops...double post.
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post #103 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by VulcanDragon
Don't be an idiot. Buying into vendor marketing and labeling as luddites anyone who disagrees with you is asinine. I have gone over this so many times in these forums that it is beginning to sound like rote, but what the hell...one more time.

First, the DVD format is not played out. The overwhelming majority, and I mean OVERWHELMING majority, of PS2 and Xbox games fit comfortably on a 4.7 GB DVD-R. And of the few that do require a DVD9, the majority of those only require DVD9 because of the extra non-game crap that is thrown onto the disc (movies, trailers, demos, etc.) In other words, in the five-odd years that console games have been DVD based, game developers have yet to utilize more then 50% of the existing DVD storage capacity.

Second: One commonly stated belief is that the increased storage availability will translate into developers suddenly deciding to store a jillion uber-hires textures that blow away the graphics of anything we have seen to date. Well first, they could store more textures today if they wanted on DVD (see #1). But even moreso, look at PC games. PC games are not constrained by the limiits of any media at all; a developer could ship a game on four DVDs if he wanted, PC gamers are used to that (and can install the whole 30+ GB game to hard drive if they want to). And yet, oddly, no developers have done this...hmm, I wonder why. Maybe because you don't need to? Does anyone really think that a PS3 game is going to look better than Half-Life 2 on a PC, which fits nicely on a single DVD, simply because it's on a Blu-Ray disc? Puh-lease!

Third: Piggybacking on #2, some people are under the impression that higher storage optical discs will allow developers to store uncompresed textures, resulting in better quality. That's a fallacy for two reasons: a) There are many rendering effects (e.g. antialiasing) in use these days that alter the texture on-the-fly, and these have far more impact on the final display than any minor corruptions from a lossy compression format. (And I doubt a developer would use a lossy compression format anyway. Back in the day it was all Run Length Encoding, which was lossless. I'm sure they still use lossless algorithms today, just with better compression factors.) And b) In any system, the I/O is the bottleneck, and optical disc I/O is some of the slowest there is. It is in the developers best interest to minimize disc reads, and guess what...compressed data can be read faster because it has a smaller disc footprint. It is demonstrably faster to read compressed data and uncompress it on the fly with a fast and underutilized CPU than it is to read five times as much uncompressed data while that CPU sits idle. (Do not confuse this with the Doom 3 Ultra mode, where the textures are uncompressed in video RAM. Big difference.)

Fourth: Not that this has any bearing to the X360, but since you're arguing for Blu-Ray: HD-DVD is better than Blu-Ray for consumers. HD-DVDs can be pressed on the same manufacturing equipment currently used to press DVDs. Blu-Rays require new equipment because they are constructed so differently. That means more startup money by the manufacturers, and costs are always passed on to the consumers. Don't believe that will happen? Take a look at what a UMD movie costs. They are always, always more expensive than their DVD counterpart. For something that can only be played on a PSP! Insane!

Also, arguing that Sony should be allowed to foist yet another proprietary storage media on us is choosing to ignore Sonys poor history in this regard. You say I would still be advocating VHS? Well, you're backing the wonderful people who brought us Betamax...and that MiniDisc thing...and now that lovely little UMD monstrosity (which I despise, maybe you don't). Maybe it's not fair to judge them this way, but people who ignore history are destined to repeat it.

And before the mantra that "Blu-Ray has more storage" is chanted, I don't want to hear it for a couple of reasons. A hi-def movie fits just fine on a HD-DVD. And the technology to create dual-layer HD-DVDs exists right now, but dual-layer Blu-Rays remain conceptual vaporware. I'm sure they will come someday, but as of this very moment, HD-DVDs can be made that have larger storage than the available Blu-Rays.

Yikes, what a rant. I need to save a link to this post so I can stop rewriting it every time this nonsense comes up.

Tell me this, do you seriously think that Blu-ray is unnecessary, even in the future? Because that is what I am saying, think of the future

For now you should e-mail this to companies like Dreamworks and Paramount and even Bill Gates and tell them not to use Blu-ray
post #104 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by OJX
Tell me this, do you seriously think that Blu-ray is unnecessary, even in the future? Because that is what I am saying, think of the future
Not arguing that larger storage capacity is never going to be needed. Of course it will, time marches on. I'm just tired of people saying that the PS3 will rule the world while the X360 goes down in flames because of their respective choices in optical media. This is a "today" issue, not an "in the future" issue. And today, DVD9 remains sufficient to support amazing looking games.

Quote:
For now you should e-mail this to companies like Dreamworks and Paramount and even Bill Gates and tell them not to use Blu-ray
I'm all for movies being produced on next gen media. A DVD9 is not sufficient space for even an MPEG2 longer than about three hours. For hi-definition movies, the extra storage is a requirement. The movie studios are divided on HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray, unfortunately. (Microsoft is an HD-DVD backer, not a Blu-Ray backer, by the way. So no e-mail to Bill Gates is necessary.)
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post #105 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VulcanDragon
Not arguing that larger storage capacity is never going to be needed. Of course it will, time marches on.
So basically you just stated contrary to all you had just posted...

Quote:
Originally Posted by VulcanDragon
I'm just tired of people saying that the PS3 will rule the world while the X360 goes down in flames because of their respective choices in optical media. This is a "today" issue, not an "in the future" issue. And today, DVD9 remains sufficient to support amazing looking games.
You can't think with a "back in my day" point of view, you'll get no where. How do you think new technology comes about? Sure, 20 years ago floppy drives were very popular. But don't you think when CD players were first released, that there would be a guy like you saying EXACTLY what you are saying now? And that people will never need more than 128k of portable space because it's more than what we will ever use for transferring files?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VulcanDragon
(Microsoft is an HD-DVD backer, not a Blu-Ray backer, by the way. So no e-mail to Bill Gates is necessary.)
Unfortunately, the movie industry doesn't revolve around microsoft. Last I checked, I don't remember seeing a microsoft made film! If they decide to use Blu-Ray for their movies, microsoft will just have to deal with it.
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post #106 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by intelc4004
So basically you just stated contrary to all you had just posted...



You can't think with a "back in my day" point of view, you'll get no where. How do you think new technology comes about? Sure, 20 years ago floppy drives were very popular. But don't you think when CD players were first released, that there would be a guy like you saying EXACTLY what you are saying now? And that people will never need more than 128k of portable space because it's more than what we will ever use for transferring files?



Unfortunately, the movie industry doesn't revolve around microsoft. Last I checked, I don't remember seeing a microsoft made film! If they decide to use Blu-Ray for their movies, microsoft will just have to deal with it.
But they wont for a simple reason.. There is no home Blu-Ray player; nor will there be for awhile. Movies fit on DVD fine, and the next step is HD-DVD..
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post #107 of 124
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jori
But they wont for a simple reason.. There is no home Blu-Ray player; nor will there be for awhile. Movies fit on DVD fine, and the next step is HD-DVD..
You still don't understand... Even you (Those who argued blu-ray would be useless) are now coming back with statements about HD-DVD. I don't know about you, but aren't we debating about Xbox/PS3 features? Whether it's HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, Xbox doesn't have it. And that's the entire point of this argument that people are trying to take in so many different directions.
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post #108 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by intelc4004
You still don't understand... Even you (Those who argued blu-ray would be useless) are now coming back with statements about HD-DVD. I don't know about you, but aren't we debating about Xbox/PS3 features? Whether it's HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, Xbox doesn't have it. And that's the entire point of this argument that people are trying to take in so many different directions.
I was simply stating HD-DVD will be deployed in the movie market far sooner than Blu-Ray will...
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post #109 of 124
i dont see what all this blu ray worshipping is about. Its gonna be expensive as hell to make the disks and even more expensive to make the players. And they dont even have any scratch protection so one little scratch can ruin the disk. I think blu ray is headed the way of betamax and those gargantuan lazer disks.
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post #110 of 124
maybe the whole Bluerey vs. HD DVD might be a moot point compaired
to HVD Have you heard about that?
    
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