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post #74351 of 107062
Quote:
Originally Posted by IT Diva View Post

That to me, is a big problem . . . . . . Fan RPM is irrelevant to getting truly useful data.

If I had done that kind of testing with the rather lame Corsair SPs, I would have gotten much higher Dt's than if I'd used the Silverstones, both of which are the same RPM.

It would have been more harmful than good if I'd used the Silverstones and posted great results, and then others went and used the same rad but saved money and got the SP's, since the RPM was the charted variable, and got the sucky results that would have come with them.

If I could do rad testing where I had a controllable fan setup with mass airflow sensors, air straightening plenums for each size rad, and could therefor chart the Dt's at known CFM points for specific heat loads, I'd have data that was actually useful. . . . .

Right, but what percentage of users would be able to translate that without having CFM data for every fan made? It's no different than doing delta T vs rpm vs every single fan in practice and impractical for users.

Given the amount of rads and different fans I have, that's something I have been thinking about doing but it's something that will be a long term thing because of (a) I am doing this out of interest and not being paid or anything and (b) it will take an appreciable amount of space, time and equipment.
Quote:
In truth, I doubt that there's enough difference in todays rads to come close to justifying such a setup, at least outside of academic curiosity, . . . guys buy based on: price, features, build quality, perceived value, or usually some combination thereof.

The temps guys are getting are way more impacted by the fans and overall airflow characteristics of their setup, than the brand of rad they use.

Nail on the head there. Rads do affect performance but people should really consider a rad+fan combo together as I have been saying. I am going to talk about everything that a rad comes with and not just focus on thermal performance with a particular fan but that's about as much as I can without the aforementioned library.
post #74352 of 107062




now those charts are making sense
I was trying to understand them myself this was the highest spec fan I could find Mega Fast fan



I would predict testing with any radiator will yield the same similar performance curve no matter which fan you choose to test it with because of the weakest thermal conductive material is the air we push though the radiator.
That's if you are the performance of the radiator by measuring the efficiency of dissipating heat

Air, athmosphere (gas) 0.024 W/(m.K)
Water 0.58 W/(m.K)
Copper 401 W/(m.K)

the water is 25x more heat conductive than the air

I think what ITDiva is explaining is a fans specs are useless without taking the static pressure into account
i.e. free flowing radiator on the desk is going to require a lot less static air pressure when the same radiator is stuck in a highly air flow restricted case.

so effectively in testing fans we need to take Cfm and static pressure vs dB

also using the anemometer you will need to use a fan space to reduce "dead spots" caused by the fan motor

as the fan above is going to blow any fan away literately if you don't mind wearing the earmuffs tongue.gif
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post #74353 of 107062
Hi guys,
I just finish this build today and wanted to show you guys my new found love biggrin.gif






post #74354 of 107062
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsqu4red View Post

Hi guys,
I just finish this build today and wanted to show you guys my new found love biggrin.gif


WoW, is there a motherboard in there somewhere? biggrin.gif Just kidding, that's unique and great job biggrin.gif
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post #74355 of 107062
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCautiousOne View Post

Ok then. I have moved most of my airflow in a push or pull for my Rads... Can anyone tell me why I am considering watercooling my HDD's with a bitspower hdd waterblock?

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/17144/ex-blc-1333/Bitspower_HDD_Acrylic_Liquid_Cooling_Block_-_Clear_BP-HDS350AC-CL.html?tl=g30c203&id=c2s5m5GJ

Someone has to have done this already.. Pics? thumb.gif My temps on hwmonitor for my HDD is 40c (while gaming, drops to 38c during normal op)

The Cautious One tongue.gif

Actually, I do plan on WC'ing my HDDs' as well. Just makes sense for my build because the HDD cage is coming out and the RAID is moving into the bottom of the 5.25 Bay. I'm considering the Koolance dual HDD system or the Watercool SILENT star Dual setup. More likely the WC unit so I can keep everything at one end and I won't have to mix anything to insulate the spindle and boards and block the power/data ports. My lower two 5.25 bays are open so it would be the best idea since sliced bread. smile.gif

~Ceadder smil3dbd4e4c2e742.gif

Save your money Ceadder,unless you are in the tropics,all watercooling drives does is lower reliability.

http://research.google.com/archive/disk_failures.pdf



Looks funky tho.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geggeg View Post

That is FPM, not CFM. I am with you on showing how rads dissipate heat with airflow but that means nothing to the average user because they control temps by fan rpm. Of course these are meant to be relative tests, doing watts dissipated is based on a constant delta T (loop - ambient) value as well which is not realistic either.

The way I have it now for the thermal tests (something requested by users and manufacturers alike) is delta T vs fan rpm. It will be a relative performance test, including the Air restriction and liquid restriction numbers because everything is relative- exact fittings used, ambient temps, fan used, control used, load applied, components used for the load and so on.

The watts dissipated vs FPM (CFM again depends on the duct size, distance between the duct and fan, distance between the duct and the anemometer) is what I will try to get done for a separate section. But I don't see that being representative of the mode it is going to be employed. Am I mistaken here? I am all for learning and improving here so it's a genuine question.

Edit: Doing watts dissipated or even delta T vs FPM/CFM also means having a library of FPM/CFM vs RPM for several fans to make it translate into useful data for people in my opinion. Again going back to the whole people using temps vs RPM in practice.

FPM=Feet per minute,its a measure of velocity,not volume.

Delta v RPM is easily replicated and is RL condition testing for FAN tests,to do this for rads,you would need a minimum of 2 samples from each end of the fan spectrum and show relative performance.

To be truthful tho,rad test are an exercise in repetition and hair splitting,dissipation rates dont really change in a significant manner. For me,impact on coolant flow rate is probably the most useful information along with FPI.
Edited by B NEGATIVE - 10/19/14 at 12:27am
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post #74356 of 107062
Quote:
Originally Posted by IT Diva View Post


Being the nerd that I am, and knowing you're a scientific type as well, . . . I have to ask what methodology you're using to make that determination about how much air is being "pushed out", and under what flow conditions, free flow for example, were you evaluating to make that determination.

We both know that in physics, or in reality in general, there's no such thing as a free lunch.

The GTs have a power draw of draw of less than 1W, while most fans of similar specs have ratings in the 2 to 5W range . . . I have difficulty believing they all deliver similarly on their ratings.


How about setting up a simple test scenario like I did, where you just look at how much air flows thru a couple representative rads using the GT's and several other similar speed fans with different power draw specs.

There's so much confirmation bias attached the GTs for watercooling, that to say anything irreverent about them is tantamount to heresy.

I think you'll find that the biggest reason they seem so quiet is not because they have found the holy grail of magic blade design, but because they just don't move enough air to be as noisy as most of the other choices.


And while I'm rambling on and being generally critical, . . . when you do the rad tests, how about doing some relative airflow testing of the various RPM fans you use . . . .

There was quite a number of posts recently where posters were extoling the RPM range that one rad seemed to become more desirable over another, (monsta vs UT60) . .

But having thought about that, that discussion was all totally meaningless, as the actual determining factor was the airflow, not the frikken fan speed. . .

The pics I posted demonstrate that reality; If I had done rad tests with ~2200 rpm fans, and used the Corsairs on one rad and the Silverstones on another, the results would have shown that whatever rad the Silverstones were on would have been Much Better performing than the one the Corsairs were on . . .

And it would have been a False conclusion . . . the rad itself could have been considerably worse than the one with the corsairs, but the massive difference in airflow between the fan makes would have hidden that, if you did not know in advance that the difference in airflow rates was so great.

It's just absolutely foolish to do rad testing based on various fan rpms, instead of doing the testing at various established air flow rates thru the rad.

[/rant]

Darlene

A wall of text, just to ask a simple question. " How did you get your results?"

Don't want to sound rude, even though it seems like it, but if fan speed was irrelevant, why would there be a shift in component temperature that correlates to fan speed?

GT at 1200rpm perform the same as, lets say SP120s at the same rpm. but a lot quieter. Testing using the same components, and looking at component temperatures. Isn't component temperature what really matters in the end?
post #74357 of 107062
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeirdHarold View Post

WoW, is there a motherboard in there somewhere? biggrin.gif Just kidding, that's unique and great job biggrin.gif

Haha....I really thought I was in way over my head when that radiator arrived...Luckily I was able to find some tools and custom made the mount...biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif
post #74358 of 107062
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsqu4red View Post

Hi guys,
I just finish this build today and wanted to show you guys my new found love biggrin.gifWarning: Spoiler! (Click to show)





Great job, I dig the modifications, and overall look. thumb.gif
post #74359 of 107062
Well, I've finally reached install time biggrin.gif My Rads are in thumb.gif

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post #74360 of 107062
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaBestiaHumana View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by IT Diva View Post


Being the nerd that I am, and knowing you're a scientific type as well, . . . I have to ask what methodology you're using to make that determination about how much air is being "pushed out", and under what flow conditions, free flow for example, were you evaluating to make that determination.

We both know that in physics, or in reality in general, there's no such thing as a free lunch.

The GTs have a power draw of draw of less than 1W, while most fans of similar specs have ratings in the 2 to 5W range . . . I have difficulty believing they all deliver similarly on their ratings.


How about setting up a simple test scenario like I did, where you just look at how much air flows thru a couple representative rads using the GT's and several other similar speed fans with different power draw specs.

There's so much confirmation bias attached the GTs for watercooling, that to say anything irreverent about them is tantamount to heresy.

I think you'll find that the biggest reason they seem so quiet is not because they have found the holy grail of magic blade design, but because they just don't move enough air to be as noisy as most of the other choices.


And while I'm rambling on and being generally critical, . . . when you do the rad tests, how about doing some relative airflow testing of the various RPM fans you use . . . .

There was quite a number of posts recently where posters were extoling the RPM range that one rad seemed to become more desirable over another, (monsta vs UT60) . .

But having thought about that, that discussion was all totally meaningless, as the actual determining factor was the airflow, not the frikken fan speed. . .

The pics I posted demonstrate that reality; If I had done rad tests with ~2200 rpm fans, and used the Corsairs on one rad and the Silverstones on another, the results would have shown that whatever rad the Silverstones were on would have been Much Better performing than the one the Corsairs were on . . .

And it would have been a False conclusion . . . the rad itself could have been considerably worse than the one with the corsairs, but the massive difference in airflow between the fan makes would have hidden that, if you did not know in advance that the difference in airflow rates was so great.

It's just absolutely foolish to do rad testing based on various fan rpms, instead of doing the testing at various established air flow rates thru the rad.

[/rant]

Darlene



A wall of text, just to ask a simple question. " How did you get your results?"

Don't want to sound rude, even though it seems like it, but if fan speed was irrelevant, why would there be a shift in component temperature that correlates to fan speed?

GT at 1200rpm perform the same as, lets say SP120s at the same rpm. but a lot quieter. Testing using the same components, and looking at component temperatures. Isn't component temperature what really matters in the end?


Because it isn't actually the fan speed that it's correlating to directly . . . . . RPM is only a fan specific, inferential correlation.

It's the actual CFM thru the rad that the temp correlates to, and it doesn't matter which fan you have, . . . X CFM = Y temp

If Fan A was the tester's fan, and gives you 50CFM thru the rad at 1200 rpm,

Getting the same 50 CFM thru the rad from Fan B may only need 900 rpm so that 1200 rpm would actually give ~65, . . . while Fan C needs 1600 rpm and Fan D needs 1800 rpm to get the 50CFM, then they'd only be getting 35 to 40 CFM at 1200 rpm

Fan B would give better results than the tester's fan, while C & D would have given worse.


Testing using the same components gets you relative information, but doesn't yield a particularly reliable way to extrapolate that to different components.

Relative testing can certainly help the tester evaluate what works best from the selection of options he has to work with, but it's poorly translatable beyond that . . . . .

That was the whole crux of the conversation.

Darlene
Edited by IT Diva - 10/19/14 at 6:47am
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