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Fridge PC NO! But what about Radiator in a freezer? - Page 8

post #71 of 97
This topic never seems to die.

IT WONT WORK. PERIOD.

It doesn't matter if the entire computer is inside it, or just the water cooling loop, or just the radiator, or just the res or just ANYTHING.

If it dissipates heat, it will kill the freezer/fridge because they are not meant to cool active loads.

Putting a radiator outside in the freezing winter, perfectly fine! putting it in a freezer is just stupid.
post #72 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by FerdinandII View Post
How about a two-stage radiator system?
  1. Put two radiators in series
  2. The first radiator uses ambient air to cool the fluid down to ambient +5 (approx)
  3. The second radiator uses fridge air to get the fluid below ambient
I was thinking along similar lines, except that there would be 3, or even 4 radiators, that would see the fluid flowing from the last Radiator into an enclosed, and sealed, liquid proof Fridge, then to the CPU block.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FerdinandII View Post
That way, you wouldn't overload the fridge.
Aye

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrimpykins View Post
Theoretically it is possible but it is also unlikely. To achieve exact ambient temps you would need 0 friction on the inside of the loop as well as the same pressure inside that loop as outside the loop. You can get within .01 C though most likely.
Ok. Good point.

But..

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerdinandII View Post
But, you can get close enough that it doesn't really matter.
Is what I'm thinking..


Quote:
Originally Posted by pheoxs View Post
This topic never seems to die.

IT WONT WORK. PERIOD.
Have you examined all the prospects presented in this thread?

I imagine it MUST get irritating when the SAME questions/propositions are put forward by members of the forum (as though they have paid no attention to past explanations).
But do not become so stereotyping so as to think that, any cooling Idea with mention of a "fridge" is BOUND to fail.
Indeed, I admit that MANY variations of this concept, all suffer from the same fundamental, flaws of physics - that make them bound to fail.
But - sometimes it appears as though people believe there's some intangible natural force in the universe that deem the use of FRIDGE TECH.. uniquivocally inapplicable to PC cooling.
Phaze is Fridge tech ay?
Hence, my point in saying all of this is that what is to be examined in any new prospect, is the PHYSICS of the idea.
Not the fact that it has something to do with a "mini fridge"


Quote:
Originally Posted by pheoxs View Post
If it dissipates heat, it will kill the freezer/fridge because they are not meant to cool active loads.
Case in point.
We're trying to discuss how to get the temps to AMBIENT Post RAD in a WC loop.
Thats Without the use of a fridge.
THEN - use a fridge to further cool AMBIENT temps.
Can fridge's cool ambient temps?

I think so
They're designed to take temps from ambient to sub ambient - thats a given.
But compare, which is more feasible in the long run?
Reducing Ambient temps vs Reducing HOT temps?
Edited by Grim - 11/10/09 at 6:27pm
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post #73 of 97
I think I suggested the pre-radiator a few times in this thread and a few times in other threads.

Hang on.. Lemme get the text document out to copy and paste the response.




You have a few options.

1. Change out the compressor to one that can handle the constant heat load inside the fridge/freezer.

2. Pre cool the loop with an a/c unit blowing on an external "pre-radiator" to help lighten the load on the original compressor and prolonge it's lifespan. The fridge/freezer acting like a second stage of cooling for the loop before heat dump at the CPU. This method can also be used without an a/c unit to lesser effect.

3. Use an a/c unit instead of a fridge/freezer. Simply form a shroud between the a/c outlet and the radiator. You can put some fans on the radiator to help airflow.

4. Create a slushbox with the components in the fridge/freezer. (may still burn out)

5. Get a phase change unit as it works on the same principle and is cheaper.


Pretty much your only 5 viable options.



To put things in terms as simple as possible. The idea of using a fridge/freezer will not work for prolonged periods of time IF the radiator inside the fridge/freezer is heating the air faster than the compressor can cool it. IF and only IF the compressor can cool the air inside the fridge faster than the radiator can heat it up, will this work. Even in this situation the compressor is still being placed under extraneous conditions and it's lifetime will thusly be shortened.

Your compressor needs a duty off cycle in order to cool down. Otherwise it is just going to burn up.

And yes, pre-radiator will help (as I have already stated) but the pre-radiator can only cool up to a few .1 degrees above ambient temp (no matter the number of pre-radiators you use), unless you use some type of extra cooling such as an a/c unit with a shroud between the a/c unit and the radiator.

Let's use a CPU ONLY loop as an example with an HK 3.0 and 3 GTX 240's from Black Ice....

You have Rad1 setup with shrouds and fans then Rad2 setup with the a/c unit then Rad3 setup inside the freezer.

Your loop goes Res -> Pump -> Rad1 -> Rad2 -> Rad3 -> CPU -> Res.

This will maximize the lifespan of the compressor in the fridge. Even under those circumstances the load being given off inside the freezer may be so great that adding the extra radiators to the loop will see literally zero gain in compressor lifespan.

If you guys wanna do this I suggest you research phase change cooling. Not water cooling. You need to understand how the compressor and all the other components fit into the phase change system in order to better understand how and why this won't work and what you can do to fix it. Throwing around wild ideas that aren't based on anything isn't going to get anyone anywhere.

The question of how to get 24/7 ambient temps or lower after the radiator is simple. Use an a/c unit they are designed to be under load 24/7 and put out sub-ambient air that can be used to cool the loop.

You are trying to get ambient temps because fridges are used to cool things at ambient temp. What you aren't considering is that that ambient temp is actually PRODUCING heat at ambient temp.

Think of it like this. You put a ham sandwich in the fridge at ambient temp. It starts to cool and keeps dropping in temp because the sandwich isn't PRODUCING heat. It's just losing it. The radiator has fresh new ambient temp water in it being circulated and will be at ambient temps all the time. It's like sticking a hotpad in between the sandwich and leaving it plugged in while the fridge is running. The sandwich will be constantly trying to cool off, dumping heat into the air, which is then removed by the phase change system inside the fridge, in the act the compressor gets used and heats up. I think you are being to presumptive and don't fully understand this on a fundamental level. And please don't take this the wrong way either. I'm just trying to offer areas in which you can research to help better your understanding.



The fundamental flaw here that most people don't get: Fridges/freezers were designed to cool things that aren't actively producing heat. While the radiator itself does not produce heat it is a medium for the heat produced by the CPU to be dumped into the cool air of the fridge.
Edited by Shrimpykins - 11/10/09 at 7:49pm
 
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post #74 of 97
No question about it, it's easy to overwhelm the compressor on the fridge.
100% duty cycle = death for fridge.

Two things help out, though.
Nobody games 24/7.
There is thermal mass inside fridge which is also resisting the temperature change.
(Ignore this whole post if you're folding...)

The slush box probably offers the best opportunity to take direct advantage of thermal mass.
  1. Get a BIG plastic container
  2. Put it on bottom of fridge, not on shelf, as it'll be too heavy
  3. Fill it with water, half way, drop radiator to the bottom
  4. Wait 8 hours
  5. Buy 3 big bags of ice
  6. Empty one bag into the container
  7. Put the other two bags in the freezer
  8. Game away for 8 hours
  9. Measure how long the compressor runs.

The room A/C unit sure looks a lot easier and cheaper in the long run.
Besides, who games in the kitchen.
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post #75 of 97
What I mean by slushbox:

There is some type of tubing or pad or something that the coolant runs through after having the heat removed from it. This is to maximize surface area and draw heat from the air inside the fridge into the coolant. In a slushbox you simply remove that element (the pad or lengths of tubing) and place them in a ice chest full of water (maybe with some anti-freeze in it). This will maximize thermal mass even more so (not really sure about the concept of thermal mass. I don't put names to things I just see the world as it should work, strange huh?). You are removing the air element from the equation and as we all know air is a terrible conductor of heat. I have actually seen this done successfully for a period of extended time. I believe in the end the compressor still burnt up but it was the most successful conversion of a fridge I have seen to this date. Someone else posted the link and I never saved it.

In the normal scenario though, without making the efficient slushbox, even the heat dumped into the loop by having the CPU idle will be enough to burn up a compressor in the long run. You will understand why if you remove whatever cooling you have on your CPU, clean it, put your finger on it, and power it on. Sounds like a stupid thing to do huh? Well when I am curious, I am curious. They say curiosity killed the cat (overclocker?), well I haven't died yet. But the short answer if you don't want to do that is you will pull your finger off within 2 seconds... It gets over 80C in just over a second. Think about that being in your fridge. It's small, but it's like having a coil from a toaster on inside the fridge. Name one thing you have ever put in your fridge that has produced heat, besides when you were doing crazy experiments. That's why they aren't designed for it.
 
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post #76 of 97
I would think the best option is modify a ac window unit weldind pipe to extend it's evap. To an insulated icebox filled with antifreeze mix where the second rad of the water setup is located (the first rad to get pc's coolant down to ambient)also have a rez. In the ice box. You may also want to place a second pump so that the coolant can pas through the rad. Just before beading to the waterblocks. The rad. In a freezer MAY work I've wonder this myself but why stay from a AC unit wich IS intended to run for extended amounts of time. Oh and also there should be anifreeze circulation accrost both the AC evap and pc rad n the ice box.
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post #77 of 97
Welcome to OCN.
And heck of a topic to make a first post on!
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post #78 of 97
Guys, if you custom make a water block that fits the radiator, you can easily watercool your radiator and drop your system temps by over 200 degrees*! Genius idea!

Results not typical*
Edited by StyleCore - 4/21/10 at 4:37pm
post #79 of 97
ok rad in freezer can work but not ur moms freezers in the kitchen
if u have a walk in freezer thats about 8x10 ft it should take the constant heat dump of a pc , the freezer in the kitchen wil take it for a few days and then ur mom will be very mad that u broke her freezer

ok u can build a phase water chiller or look at the forsale adds under cooling and buy one from thier allredy made tuned and tested for 300W heat load , and alot cheaper then haveing to buy ur mom a new fridge or freezer
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post #80 of 97
Okay, so we all know it is a bad idea to put a PC in a fridge, and a radiator in the fridge isn't much better. However, lets just imagine for a second that we were able to place the radiator in the freezer portion, and maintain a perfect seal (plausible, surface mount quick disconnects with pressure seals) Say this radiator were a 3x120 radiator, and we submerged said radiator in a bucket of water INSIDE the refrigerator. Prior to turning the PC on, we allow said bucket of water to freeze around the radiator.

Step away from this situation for a second, we will come back to it later:
Assume the room your PC is in is 27C on a hot summer day. With normal water cooling we are able to keep the liquid with a CPU load within 1-3C of that high temperature. Premature thinking would say "Well, lets use a regular liquid loop to cool the water before it enters the freezer." This is actually an even worse idea, because the freezer is keeping the water lower than ambient temperatures, the ambient air in your room flowing through the radiator would actually function as a secondary heat load - this is bad.

Back to our little slush box - our water is probably about 3 or 4 C HOTTER than the temperature the freezer wants it to be - simply from the processor's heat load, however the ice of our slush box does not melt, and therefore the water cooling radiator is no longer a heat load for the refrigerators compressor. Why? Simple, the heat transfer properties of the tubing we use is absolutely horrible, and the water is only a little bit warmer than the temperature of the surrounding ice. Assume the ice is around -5C, and the coolant in our W/C loop is at -1C. Does the ice melt? No - its still below freezing, and the heat load doesn't transfer well through the tubes. The radiator is encased in ice and even though it is reaching -1C the ice will still remain frozen.

Honestly I think the combination of the slush box idea with a freezer may be able to counteract the neccesity of a constantly running compressor, as long as we are able to keep the coolant below freezing. This of course does mean we will need insulation... However with a slush box large enough to fit 2x 120.2 radiator's and encase them in ice I believe the system could work.
    
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