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post #20351 of 28253
http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1657208&postcount=6

Read that.....that's why the stronger one should be pull. Long term though you'll burn out one of the fans.
post #20352 of 28253
http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113280
post #20353 of 28253
First off that's UK fans. Recognize the power of Ultra Kaze for what it is. You could basically take one put ducting on it and use it as a leaf blower. Just as loud too.

2nd if you're running a standard 120 this MAY be true. But one thing not being taken into account is Static Pressure. Ultra Kaze doesn't have good SP. So there will be cavitation caused by the air causing "blowback" hitting the open spots between the blades.

If you use a reliable fan with good Static Pressure rating you won't have any worries at all. Hell if I owned $40 fans(average price for UK) I'd be a little worried about burning them out too. Simple fact is that test was rather limited. Also I didn't see (maybe notice) if there was a use of a shroud. Push that Pusher fan off the Radiator and then tell me how much of a difference THAT makes in the whole experiment. Even with UKs' being used.

Seriously though, if you have a good fan with solid SP this shouldn't even be an issue. I've had Push Pull on my H50 and it worked just fine. But in my case it WAS a matched set(similar CFM, SP and dB ratings) so that might not make much difference. I'd still recommend similar rating fans to be run in Push Pull, but if you have decent fans of differing CFM and both have good SP, I'd make the more powerful the Pusher because it will drive the Pull fan. The pull fan will not hinder the Push fan in any way simply because it cannot overdrive the Pusher and therefore cannot draw more air than the pusher is capable of. Any resulting jet wash from the Pusher fan is probably more a biproduct of using the incorrect fan to begin with. I would recommend a shroud however this would allow the push fan to cool more surface than it would if it were right atop the radiator. wink.gif

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post #20354 of 28253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post

First off that's UK fans. Recognize the power of Ultra Kaze for what it is. You could basically take one put ducting on it and use it as a leaf blower. Just as loud too.
2nd if you're running a standard 120 this MAY be true. But one thing not being taken into account is Static Pressure. Ultra Kaze doesn't have good SP. So there will be cavitation caused by the air causing "blowback" hitting the open spots between the blades.
If you use a reliable fan with good Static Pressure rating you won't have any worries at all. Hell if I owned $40 fans(average price for UK) I'd be a little worried about burning them out too. Simple fact is that test was rather limited. Also I didn't see (maybe notice) if there was a use of a shroud. Push that Pusher fan off the Radiator and then tell me how much of a difference THAT makes in the whole experiment. Even with UKs' being used.
Seriously though, if you have a good fan with solid SP this shouldn't even be an issue. I've had Push Pull on my H50 and it worked just fine. But in my case it WAS a matched set(similar CFM, SP and dB ratings) so that might not make much difference. I'd still recommend similar rating fans to be run in Push Pull, but if you have decent fans of differing CFM and both have good SP, I'd make the more powerful the Pusher because it will drive the Pull fan. The pull fan will not hinder the Push fan in any way simply because it cannot overdrive the Pusher and therefore cannot draw more air than the pusher is capable of. Any resulting jet wash from the Pusher fan is probably more a biproduct of using the incorrect fan to begin with. I would recommend a shroud however this would allow the push fan to cool more surface than it would if it were right atop the radiator. wink.gif
~Ceadder smil3dbd4e4c2e742.gif

Thanks Ceadderman. To be honest, I first started my overclock without the pusher fan on at all, and the difference in temps with the pusher fan appears to be extremely minimal if not negligible.

When I get some time I'll pull off the Delta and try running the two matched Corsair Fans to see what sort of temps I'm getting with those. I'm not honestly expecting temps to be any better than they are with just using the Delta given the spec of that are so high, but I guess I'll only know if I try it out. I don't know if my logic is right but the stats of the 2 Corsair fans together would equal roughly the same CFM as the Delta Fan (2xCorsair = 2 x 74CFM = 148CFM, 1xDelta= 148.34CFM), but still Less Static Pressure (2xCorsair = 2 x 3.2 = 6.4mmH2O, 1xDelta = 15.29mmH2O)

Tell me if my logic is way off, I know it's gooing to come down to experimentation to find out for sure but at the same time I'm learning a lot from you guys on here so I'd appreciate your thoughts.

Thanks.
post #20355 of 28253
With SP, less is more. Meaning the lower the SP rating the better the performance. It's the exact opposite of CFM performance rating. Which is why 1 Delta will NEVER beat a single Yate Loon for SP performance because D12SH-12C Yates have an SP of .8(+/-) The three best performers for Radiators are Yates, Cooler Master R4 and Gentle Typhoon AP fans. Ultra Kaze(/Delta) makes a reliable case fan and some people swear by them as Radiator fans but they probably don't give a rip about the dB level that comes along with those fans. Personally I like my sanity and being able to game w/o having to have the 2.1s cranked up high enough for the neighbors to call the cops cause my deaf ass needs to hear the ambient sounds in the game. tongue.gif lol

Oh and also your math is off on the pairing for CFM. I can't specifically state that SP math is off. But I'm reasonably sure that 2 fans pushing the same column of air do not double in force. You might check with Martin's liquid labs or do a YouTube search for fan reviews regarding this.

So what is the benefit of running P/P? well to be honest the CFM does increase but I think that it takes the load off the Pusher fan allowing it to work cleaner reducing heat generated by the stators. Remember electricity is heat. That heat builds up and has to go somewhere. Running just one fan on a Radiator in Push that heat is going to wick away into the Radiator. But what if I run Pull? Well Pull will throw off heat away from the Radiator but is not as good as Push for cooling. So basically pull while increasing the flow rate of CFM is more productive as a cooler for the Push fan while incrementally increasing the actual cooling performance of the Radiator. It gets better when you add a shroud regardless of type. Although true shrouds will outperform modded shrouds using an empty fan body. smile.gif

Hope I don't confuse or lose you. If you have any questions don't hesitate to ask. I'm no expert, just droppin some knowledge of the things I've learned since I started researching this stuff a couple years back. smile.gif

~Ceadder smil3dbd4e4c2e742.gif
 
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post #20356 of 28253
Ok, so what your saying is that it's actually fans that have a lower static pressure that are better for radiators? So lets assume that I have 2 sets of fans both of which push around 70CFM, (Which I do have at home). I have a set of Enermax fans with a static pressure of approx 1.65mmH2O and a set of Corsair fans with static pressure of 3.2mmH2O. By your description I'd be better off with the Enermax fans.

But that seems to contradict everything I've been reading elsewhere that states a higher static pressure is important to overcome the resistance of the radiator. There are numerous posts all over the web but this one is an example: http://www.overclock.net/t/1060706/cfm-or-static-pressure-for-specific-radiator-fans#post_14138651

The rest of what you're saying makes perfect sense but I'm not sure about what you're saying with reference to static pressure.

thanks:thumb:
post #20357 of 28253
Quote:
Originally Posted by combatant3219 View Post

Ok, so what your saying is that it's actually fans that have a lower static pressure that are better for radiators? So lets assume that I have 2 sets of fans both of which push around 70CFM, (Which I do have at home). I have a set of Enermax fans with a static pressure of approx 1.65mmH2O and a set of Corsair fans with static pressure of 3.2mmH2O. By your description I'd be better off with the Enermax fans.

But that seems to contradict everything I've been reading elsewhere that states a higher static pressure is important to overcome the resistance of the radiator. There are numerous posts all over the web but this one is an example: http://www.overclock.net/t/1060706/cfm-or-static-pressure-for-specific-radiator-fans#post_14138651

The rest of what you're saying makes perfect sense but I'm not sure about what you're saying with reference to static pressure.

thanks:thumb:

Let me confirm my information. I'm reasonably sure for Case fans you want a High SP for Radiator Fans you want a low SP. Of course this also depends on the FPI rating of your Radiator. Like mine is 30FPI for my GT Stealth 360. I need a high CFM fan for better cooling ability than I do a lower CFM rated fan. Anyway, lemme dig round an I'll try to cite some sources for you. smile.gif

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post #20358 of 28253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Hotepp View Post


One of the fans is going to burn out if it's mismatched, especially by that much (it'll probably be the delta that goes first). The slower fan is going to act like a drag on the bigger one.

*Edit-if you do use that setup make sure the more powerful fan (the Delta) is the pull fan. And definately don't ramp it up to full speed. TOO much of a mismatch there imho but someone correct me if I'm wrong.

The fan won't burn out. You can put mismatched fans on rads. Put the strongest fan as push, and the weaker fan as pull.

Fans don't get their full cfm when pushing through a rad because the rad will block some of the air flow, and there is a back pressure they have to overcome. So, if you put a weaker fan on as the pull fan, as long as they are not overly mismatched, it will still assist. The fan with the highest static pressure (the delta in this case) should be the push fan. The pull fan doesn't even have to have high static pressure, but a good airflow helps to remove the hot air the push fan is pushing through the rad.

No doubt it's best to match the fans if you can, but I've used mismatched fans myself on an H50 and had no issues at all. Even Corsair George has mentioned same, and he is where I got the information for using the high static pressure fan as the push fan.
Quote:

I'd have to do those tests myself before I would believe them. Sure, push fans suffer from a backdraft. That's why you need the fan with the best static pressure to be pushing, because it's the best at fighting the back pressure.

Put it this way. If you're just using a push fan on a rad, by itself, it's not going to decrease your performance to add a lower static pressure fan in pull. In fact, the low pressure they create (what there is of it) will be better than the neutral pressure that was there before the fan was added. The CFM of the fan, as long as it's in the same ballpark as the push fan, can only assist in pulling the hot air away from the rad.

I agree with Ceadderman 100% on this issue.

@Ceadderman

Uh, can you explain this please?

"With SP, less is more."

How can less pressure be more? Does less pressure in your kitchen sink faucet push more water or less?

A Corsair stock H100 fan has a static pressure of 7.7mm/H20. That is better than a Corsair H60 fan, which only has a static pressure of 3.2mm/H2O. (both at maximum RPM). Aren't the H60 fans Yate Loons? I think there are different models of Loons as well, and not all of them put out the same pressure.

Please link me to where it says: "Meaning the lower the SP rating the better the performance." because that goes against everything I have ever learned about physics. Higher pressure pushes more air because there is more force (pressure) pushing the air. The best fans can combine high static pressure with high cfm (and likely high noise). Just like more Voltage (electrical pressure) pushes more electrons, more static pressure pushes more air.

The advantage Yate Loons (or AP-15s) have is they have good static pressure at lower RPM, making them a quiet solution for a radiator fan. However, stock H100 fans may outperform the Loons (depending on the model) when both are turned up to full speed because the H100 fans have both a higher static pressure and a higher cfm at full rpm, but are louder. I can only guess as to the actual value of static pressure for the Yate Loons as that number is not actually published anywhere, and we can only go by community testing.

Here is an example:

http://www.overclock.net/t/819736/yate-loon-d12sh-12-round-up-review-56k-no

The best fan in that list is the Sidewinders fan, and it only has a static pressure of 2.99 mm/H20 which is not better than the 3.2mm from the H60 fan, or the 7.7mm of the H100 fans although the performance per noise level would most likely be better on the Loons.
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post #20359 of 28253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mergatroid View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Hotepp View Post


One of the fans is going to burn out if it's mismatched, especially by that much (it'll probably be the delta that goes first). The slower fan is going to act like a drag on the bigger one.

*Edit-if you do use that setup make sure the more powerful fan (the Delta) is the pull fan. And definately don't ramp it up to full speed. TOO much of a mismatch there imho but someone correct me if I'm wrong.

The fan won't burn out. You can put mismatched fans on rads. Put the strongest fan as push, and the weaker fan as pull.

Fans don't get their full cfm when pushing through a rad because the rad will block some of the air flow, and there is a back pressure they have to overcome. So, if you put a weaker fan on as the pull fan, as long as they are not overly mismatched, it will still assist. The fan with the highest static pressure (the delta in this case) should be the push fan. The pull fan doesn't even have to have high static pressure, but a good airflow helps to remove the hot air the push fan is pushing through the rad.

No doubt it's best to match the fans if you can, but I've used mismatched fans myself on an H50 and had no issues at all. Even Corsair George has mentioned same, and he is where I got the information for using the high static pressure fan as the push fan.
Quote:

I'd have to do those tests myself before I would believe them. Sure, push fans suffer from a backdraft. That's why you need the fan with the best static pressure to be pushing, because it's the best at fighting the back pressure.

Put it this way. If you're just using a push fan on a rad, by itself, it's not going to decrease your performance to add a lower static pressure fan in pull. In fact, the low pressure they create (what there is of it) will be better than the neutral pressure that was there before the fan was added. The CFM of the fan, as long as it's in the same ballpark as the push fan, can only assist in pulling the hot air away from the rad.

I agree with Ceadderman 100% on this issue.

@Ceadderman

Uh, can you explain this please?

"With SP, less is more."

How can less pressure be more? Does less pressure in your kitchen sink faucet push more water or less?

A Corsair stock H100 fan has a static pressure of 7.7mm/H20. That is better than a Corsair H60 fan, which only has a static pressure of 3.2mm/H2O. (both at maximum RPM). Aren't the H60 fans Yate Loons? I think there are different models of Loons as well, and not all of them put out the same pressure.

Please link me to where it says: "Meaning the lower the SP rating the better the performance." because that goes against everything I have ever learned about physics. Higher pressure pushes more air because there is more force (pressure) pushing the air. The best fans can combine high static pressure with high cfm (and likely high noise). Just like more Voltage (electrical pressure) pushes more electrons, more static pressure pushes more air.

The advantage Yate Loons (or AP-15s) have is they have good static pressure at lower RPM, making them a quiet solution for a radiator fan. However, stock H100 fans may outperform the Loons (depending on the model) when both are turned up to full speed because the H100 fans have both a higher static pressure and a higher cfm at full rpm, but are louder. I can only guess as to the actual value of static pressure for the Yate Loons as that number is not actually published anywhere, and we can only go by community testing.

Here is an example:

http://www.overclock.net/t/819736/yate-loon-d12sh-12-round-up-review-56k-no

The best fan in that list is the Sidewinders fan, and it only has a static pressure of 2.99 mm/H20 which is not better than the 3.2mm from the H60 fan, or the 7.7mm of the H100 fans although the performance per noise level would most likely be better on the Loons.

I think I'm saying it wrong which would complicate matters. I'm still looking round for the information though just with I could remember who did the fan review cause the way they esplained it makes sense. mellowsmiley.gif

Did I mention that I'm no expert? eh-smiley.gif

biggrin.gif

I'm sidetracked at the moment speaking with one client about selling some systems he no longer requires so he can fund other habits and speaking with another who needs to upgrade on a wicked tight budget. So between them and searching for the info I seek is a 3 headed monster. tongue.gif lol

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post #20360 of 28253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mergatroid View Post

The fan won't burn out. You can put mismatched fans on rads. Put the strongest fan as push, and the weaker fan as pull.
Fans don't get their full cfm when pushing through a rad because the rad will block some of the air flow, and there is a back pressure they have to overcome. So, if you put a weaker fan on as the pull fan, as long as they are not overly mismatched, it will still assist. The fan with the highest static pressure (the delta in this case) should be the push fan. The pull fan doesn't even have to have high static pressure, but a good airflow helps to remove the hot air the push fan is pushing through the rad.
No doubt it's best to match the fans if you can, but I've used mismatched fans myself on an H50 and had no issues at all. Even Corsair George has mentioned same, and he is where I got the information for using the high static pressure fan as the push fan.
I'd have to do those tests myself before I would believe them. Sure, push fans suffer from a backdraft. That's why you need the fan with the best static pressure to be pushing, because it's the best at fighting the back pressure.
Put it this way. If you're just using a push fan on a rad, by itself, it's not going to decrease your performance to add a lower static pressure fan in pull. In fact, the low pressure they create (what there is of it) will be better than the neutral pressure that was there before the fan was added. The CFM of the fan, as long as it's in the same ballpark as the push fan, can only assist in pulling the hot air away from the rad.
I agree with Ceadderman 100% on this issue.
@Ceadderman
Uh, can you explain this please?
"With SP, less is more."
How can less pressure be more? Does less pressure in your kitchen sink faucet push more water or less?
A Corsair stock H100 fan has a static pressure of 7.7mm/H20. That is better than a Corsair H60 fan, which only has a static pressure of 3.2mm/H2O. (both at maximum RPM). Aren't the H60 fans Yate Loons? I think there are different models of Loons as well, and not all of them put out the same pressure.
Please link me to where it says: "Meaning the lower the SP rating the better the performance." because that goes against everything I have ever learned about physics. Higher pressure pushes more air because there is more force (pressure) pushing the air. The best fans can combine high static pressure with high cfm (and likely high noise). Just like more Voltage (electrical pressure) pushes more electrons, more static pressure pushes more air.
The advantage Yate Loons (or AP-15s) have is they have good static pressure at lower RPM, making them a quiet solution for a radiator fan. However, stock H100 fans may outperform the Loons (depending on the model) when both are turned up to full speed because the H100 fans have both a higher static pressure and a higher cfm at full rpm, but are louder. I can only guess as to the actual value of static pressure for the Yate Loons as that number is not actually published anywhere, and we can only go by community testing.
Here is an example:
http://www.overclock.net/t/819736/yate-loon-d12sh-12-round-up-review-56k-no
The best fan in that list is the Sidewinders fan, and it only has a static pressure of 2.99 mm/H20 which is not better than the 3.2mm from the H60 fan, or the 7.7mm of the H100 fans although the performance per noise level would most likely be better on the Loons.

Look at it this way. When you have grossly mismatched fans what's going to happen? Together they are going to reach an equilibrium with the slower fan spinning faster then it's rating and the faster fan spinning slower. To settle this question once and for all I've sent off a message to a professor of electrical engineering for a definitive answer.
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