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post #20371 of 28253
No replies yet. I've emailed various fan manufacturers as well. I was discussing it with me dad (6 year ET in the navy and 41 years as an electrician with his industrial plant supervisors license) and he pretty much agreed with me on the following point. With the two fans coupled together with the radiator the faster fan will slow down and the slower fan speed up to a middle equilibriuam (longer explanation in the thread I started in the cooler master forum section). As he stated with the increased load on the faster fan voltage stays the same (standard for DC motors) but the impediance drops (has to do with the electromotive force) and current rises. The slower fan will speed up causing the emf (electromotive force) to rise and current to drop which won't in itself cause a failure to the fan itself. The remaining questions would be on the slower fan will this increase in speed still fall within the design specifications of the bearings but even if it does it still will cause increased wear on the bearings. Wether that will cause the bearings to wear out in the time it will be used depends on the quality of the bearings and how they were designed etc. The other question would be does the increased current fall within the specifications of the design of the motor or will it cause a failure of the motor (through increased current and heat causing things like the insulation on the windings to melt and then short the windings causing increased current etc etc).

*edit - Even so, as I'm well aware from the comments made that logic and reasoning won't be accepted as a final answer I'm still actively looking for a final answer from an expert and when I get it I will post it here.
Edited by Bubba Hotepp - 5/7/12 at 3:39pm
post #20372 of 28253
Drag only comes into play if the vanes on either fan is different to that of the other. If the pitch is off it can negatively affect the performance of the fan.

No offense but it feels as though you're intentionally making mountains of ant piles. It's ALWAYS recommended to run matched fans in both speed and type. If you can't then it's recommended to run the slower fan in Pull because teh faster fan has to push through the Radiator. The loss of airflow going through the Radiator won't make a monumental impact on the Puller Fan nor will the Puller fan introduce enough drag to have a negative impact on the Push Fan because there is already a blockage between the two disrupting airflow. You're not running both in a completely open environment an I think that may be where you're making a wrong turn in your thought process.

I commend your curiosity on this though. thumb.gif

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post #20373 of 28253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post

Drag only comes into play if the vanes on either fan is different to that of the other. If the pitch is off it can negatively affect the performance of the fan.
No offense but it feels as though you're intentionally making mountains of ant piles. It's ALWAYS recommended to run matched fans in both speed and type. If you can't then it's recommended to run the slower fan in Pull because teh faster fan has to push through the Radiator. The loss of airflow going through the Radiator won't make a monumental impact on the Puller Fan nor will the Puller fan introduce enough drag to have a negative impact on the Push Fan because there is already a blockage between the two disrupting airflow. You're not running both in a completely open environment an I think that may be where you're making a wrong turn in your thought process.
I commend your curiosity on this though. thumb.gif
~Ceadder smil3dbd4e4c2e742.gif

^ I 2nd this.


Besides... the theory don't work. You're assuming the fans are built exactly the same way. There are too many other factors within the fans to consider.

Just match the dang fans.
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post #20374 of 28253
What you say may be true in extreme cases, but there's no way the fans we use in the PC cases are going to melt any motor wire insulation. I could see your point if one was being forced to run more than 100% faster, but in the cases we're talking about you might get a 25% variance. EMF is just another voltage. A motor can act like a generator if it's armature is turned physically. I would have expected this voltage to be the opposite polarity and act as a back EMF similar to the back air pressure being caused by the push fan, however I would have to measure it to be sure.
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post #20375 of 28253
Actually you're wrong. Just because the radiator impedes airflow doesn't negate the fact that the other fan is going to slow the faster fan down. You forget one simple principle. With a fan that can move 170 cubic feet of air per minute @ 4000 revolutions per minute, it doesn't matter whether the fan's motor is on or you set the fan in a huricane that moves 170 cfm of air through the fan, it will still be turning at 4000 revolutions per minute. Which means for 1 revolution of the fan blades it's moving 0.425 feet of air per minute (170/4000=0.425). Conversly a fan rated to move 70 CFM @ 2000 RPM means that it moves .035 cubic feet of air per minute for every 1 revolution. If the radiator is slowing the fan enough for the first fan to have zero impact on the speed of the first fan that means the airflow through the radiator has been lowered to 70 CFM (I dare you to show me the physics that says it's even possible). In for the first fan to ONLY move 70 cubic feet of air per minute through the radiator and across it's blades that would mean the it MUST only be spinning at 1647.05 revolutions per minute (70/.0425=1647.05) which means it's running a full 2353.95 revolutions per minute SLOWER than designed to operate at a contant voltage.

Quote -

"The current a motor draws is ultimately determined by the torque the motor produces. The generated torque is dependent upon the current I, and factors determined by the materials and internal geometry of the motor. Since the construction of a finished motor will not (!) change during operation, a constant of proportionality between the motor current and the materials / geometry dependent factors can be calculated for a given motor. This constant, the torque constant Kt, describes the torque generated by the motor for a specific motor current:

Kt = T / I

Or to put it another way,

Current through motor = torque produced / torque constant
I (Amps) = Torque (oz-in) / Kt (oz-in/A) in imperial units

I (Amps) = Torque (N-m) / Kt (N-m/A) in SI units

Because of the interrelationship of torque, speed, current, and voltage, the constant current operation of a DC motor produces constant output torque regardless of speed. Given a constant load (i.e. torque) the speed of a motor is solely dependent on the voltage applied to the motor. For DC motors operated at a constant voltage, the speed and torque produced are inversely related (the higher the torque, the lower the speed of the motor)."

Remember that in these fans the voltage is constant. Therefore as you alter the "speed" and "torque" of the motor it MUST alter the current. Let's create an example.

Take a fan that at a constant voltage (using a fan controller to lower the speed is NOT changing the voltage from constant to variable) turns at 2000 RPM and produces 200 torque at 1 amp. Kt=200/1 or Kt=200. Now the fan is operating at 2000 RPM we plug the numbers into the equation and we get I (amps) = 200 (produced torque) / 200 (torque constant) solving produces I (amps) = 1. Now with produced torque being an inverse relationship where as speed goes down torque goes up. Let's say that we reduced the speed of the fan and double the torque and plug those numbers into the equation. I (amps) = 400 (torque produced) / 200 (torque constant) solving produces, I (amps) = 2. By now you get the idea. Reduce the speed of the fan by more and more and the torque increases exponentially and so does the current.
post #20376 of 28253
Okay Bubba, whatever you say. axesmiley.png

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post #20377 of 28253
@Bubba: Not to argue against you, but you're implying/assuming that the fans always run at what they are rated at. Even in open air, none of my 2200RPM Yate Loons nor my 2150RPM GTs run at those rated speeds/voltage/current (I've measured them). There are always fluctuations and each fan/motor has varying fluctuations even within the same model and batch.

Even with (ideally perfect) matching fans in push/pull in a rad, one fan will always run slower. I've experienced this with my own rad/fans, so while theory is always great to have, real life results is what really counts.
    
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post #20378 of 28253
*banging head against wall* OH MY GOD!!

A fluctuation of 1% doesn't change Voltage from "constant" to suddenly "variable" the same goes for everything else. Fluctiations of 1 - 2% are within the NORMAL operating range unless you're NASA. I'm not saying that if you take a fan that is 1200 RPM and match it with a fan that is 1500 RPM that you are likely to notice any degredation in the fan in the amount of years that you own it if at all. But we're not talking about a small difference here. The OP of the fans in question is matching a 3900 RPM fan with over double the cfm and almost twice the RPM of a standard case fan. You can argue it all you want but the math and the science doesn't lie. This goes far beyond just a little mismatch between some normal case fans.

I'm going to throw down the gauntlet right now. PROVE ME WRONG. Let's see your hard evidence that matching two fans together with those specifications will HAVE ZERO AFFECT ON THE HEALTH AND LONGEVITY OF THE FANS MOTOR.
Edited by Bubba Hotepp - 5/7/12 at 11:13pm
post #20379 of 28253
I could be wrong but I believe said gentleman is only running the one fan atm and had asked if it was okay to run a slower fan with it. With a fan controller on it I don't see why not. I believe (but could be wrong) that this was mentioned to him.

Also again you're making everything straight up perfect world scenario in your argument. When reality is much different than PW scenario. Take my Radiator for Instance. 30Fins Per Inch over 360mm. That's a lot of disrupted air flow. That's why it's recommended to run faster fans with it.

But take the SR1 360 made by the same company(marketed?) which has a lower rated FPI which only require a half rated fan to blow air through it. From what I remember of my H50, it had a reasonable amount of FPI. More so than a Medium rated fan could cool on a hot ambient temp day. So I would think that it's between 18 and 25FPI.

In any case you even say it yourself, that you're talking about an extreme difference in performance here. You're not talking about a 1400rpm fan being pushed by a 2200 rpm fan. You're speaking of Delta or Ultra Kaze thick body fans driving the airflow through a standard 120. Now that you've stated this, what you say makes sense but again a good fan controller will solve that. Even if you didn't use one I doubt that the little bugger would spontaneously burst into flames being overdriven by let's say a Delta Widebody fan.

Maybe you communicated this previously and I missed it. But I'm not the only person who did. mellowsmiley.gif

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post #20380 of 28253
I'm saying it's the opposite. By adding a radiator to the delta you're increasing the load on the motor. Unless the radiator is lowering the CFM of the delta below the CFM capabilty of the slower speed fan while attached to the radiator (which would NOT be the max stated CFM of the fan), the slower fan will put an even higher load on the motor of the delta. Increased load = decreased speed. Decreased speed = increased torque. Increased torque = increased current (Amps). Increased current (Amps) = increased heat (inside the motor). With the delta already carrying the load caused by the radiator now you're running the risk of adding a far greater load and current to the delta than it is designed for by adding a lower speed fan which would of course reduce the life of the motor. By how much depends on how far past it's ratings it's being pushed. Now when it comes to lightly mismatched fans with say fan 1 that moves 60 CFM @ 2000 RPM and fan 2 that moves 50 CFM @1800 RPM I'm sure that the radiator is lowering the CFM of the first fan below the capability of the second fan and adding it would actually be beneficial since it would help to reduce the pressure caused by the radiator. You could add a fan controller to the delta and the other fan but in order to figure out the safe operating level of said fans now you have to compare specs (RPM is not the only factor that can cause a high mismatch, take two fans that operate at 2000 RPM but different CFM of 200 and 60), calculate the pressure caused by the radiator and how it will affect the CFM of the fans, etc. etc, in order to come up with a correct operating speed for the delta (or other more powerful fan). It's much simpler and less risky to just use two fans that are exactly the same or close in specifications (lightly mismated as we discussed before).
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