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[Official] Corsair Hydro Series Club - Page 2039

post #20381 of 28303
WoW didn't mean to stir the pot, but it is an interesting discussion smile.gif I love "theory" and proported scientific "fact" thumb.gif It's what feeds our curiousity/ingenuity to produce "Real World" results ... I wanted to better understand the science behind why my bastardized H100 setup was working so well. I fully intended to buy 2 more matching fans, or 4 more new fans for a full push/pull setup ... but I see no reason to! Further confirmed by a heatwave we had out here on the west coast a couple weeks ago. The H100 performed beautifully, even on Low in a pretty HOT ambient environment (90-95F redface.gif ). And actually my system only became unstable due to the Northbridge overheating mad.gif

If interested you can read more here ... Holy Heatwave Batman - Z68 chipset overheating!
http://www.overclock.net/t/1247417/holy-heatwave-batman-z68-chipset-overheating#post_17062743

Bastardized H100 push/pull CM200mm pull fan rolleyes.gif

450

Quick fix Northbridge cooling wink.gif

450

Thanks to all! for the stimulating discussion smile.gif
 
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Too Easy
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post #20382 of 28303
I cant even imagine trying to overclock in northern nevada (I grew up in Battle Mountain thumb.gif)

I didn't start building computers until a year ago or so, and colorado winters make for amazing overclocks smile.gif

also nice solution with the big fans
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post #20383 of 28303
Actually, I have always been maintaining discussion about fans in the same ballpark, as I have stated in multiple posts. However, I don't think the burden of proof is on our side of the argument. In your response to the opening post you said that matching those two particular fans would burn one of them out, and that's almost a quote.

I say, even if they are really overmatched, although it may reduce the lifespan of whatever is the weaker fan, it's not going to "burn anything out". And I even asked for any links to evidence of mismatched fans in anyone's case or cooler causing one fan to burn out. Nothing was offered up. I cannot prove a negative. How long would I have to run them before it would be considered "not burning out"?

Sure, if you increase the revs of a bearing not designed to handle it you're going to shorten the lifespan of the bearing. By how much depends on just how much you overwork them. But it's the same for ANYTHING. Including overclocking CPUs and video cards. Anything run past it's design will have its lifespan shortened. The question is, if you ran these two particular fans in a system, how long would it take for one of the fans to fail. You were outright saying "one fan will burn out", and later you said the extra current produced could melt the armature wiring.

I say, unless you define perhaps a 50% shortened lifespan as "burning it out", that even fans as miss matched as these two are will not produce enough of a problem to shorten the lifespan on a fan enough to consider it "burning out", and further that it would not melt the armature wire. I will offer a sidebar here that IMO, this would partially depend on the quality of the fans in question. I've seen fans rated for years fail in days. I also maintain that you're not going to get 148 cfm through a rad, but exactly how much the airflow would be reduced I'm not sure since I don't have the equipment to test that. Even the grill in a case decreases airflow.

However, I still maintain that in this case the pull fan being this much weaker will effect the airflow enough to reduce the effectiveness of the cooler, while fans "in the same ballpark" as I have been consistently saying, would be unlikely to affect the performance at all. As I mentioned, referring to "ballpark fans", I have a mismatched set here right now that work just fine together. So, as I said in my previous post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mergatroid View Post

What you say may be true in extreme cases.

I consider the mismatch in the op as approaching extreme. I wouldn't match those two fans myself without a fan controller, but would the lifespan of the slower fan be reduced enough to be considered "burning out the fan"? Well, I'm overclocking my CPU by about 25%, so if my CPU dies in the future, even though it's lasted for years, can that be strictly considered "the overclock burned out your cpu"?, I would say maybe if it happened soon after overclocking, but if it happens after years of use I would say it just wore out. Sure the overclock contributed, but it didn't "burn it out". That's what I'm saying about the fans. I suppose we could always test it out somehow, but personally I don't feel like running a couple of fans long enough to burn them out.

I still maintain my answer regarding miss matched fans has always been about ballpark fans, and I consider the op fans on the edge of what I would consider extreme but I still don't think there would be any "burning out" or "wire melting".
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post #20384 of 28303
Actually it's the opposite. And I still stand by my statement. By combining such highly mismatched fans together you run the very real risk of burning out the motor in the higher speed/cfm fan. Again as you increase the load on the motor you increase the current. As you increase the current you increase the heat. As you increase the heat at some point it will burn out the motor. The only question is if the motor of the delta can withstand the increased current flow through the windings of the motor. Why anyone would say matching two fans like that (and of course adding a fan controller is a different scenario which in his original question he didn't mention but still has it's own complications) is quote "not going to do anything to the fans" unqoute is beyond me.
post #20385 of 28303
I think you're putting too much weight on the obstacle that pull fan provides. I think the rad is just as much of an obstacle as the fan is. I don't think the added effect on the push fan would cause a problem, at least not in this case.
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post #20386 of 28303
Unless the radiator reduces the ability of the Delta in either push or pull to below the cfm capability of the other fan while attached to a radiator (the slower fan will not be at it's maximum stated CFM regardless of wether or not another fan is attached to the radiator because of issues like turbulance caused by being close to the fins) the slower fan will put an even higher load on the more powerful fan. You're ignoring one simple fact. With the delta attached to the radiator pulling air through it, air traveling into the radiator is traveling in a straight direction into the radiator. With another fan attached the air will be entering into the fins of the radiator at the exact angle of the blades of the fan. So unless the lower speed fan has the capability to push air into the radiator at a higher rate then the delta is pulling, then it will cause even higher drag than the radiator alone and a higher load on the delta. Higher load = lower speed = higher torque = higher current.
post #20387 of 28303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Hotepp View Post

...air traveling into the radiator is traveling in a straight direction into the radiator. .

I'm still trying to wrap my brain around this failed concept so I'm only going to address it because there is just too much fail in it. mellowsmiley.gif

Yeah air flows through the radiator but much of the time based on how Radiators are made, 100% of the air doesn't pass through cleanly. Not even when you add a shroud. There will always be some turbulence between the fan and the fins. That turbulence leads to blowback or more commonly known as cavitation.

Cavitation as you may hopefully understand will lessen the amount of flow. wink.gif

Ask your Pops about Cavitation. Him being a Navy man should be able to answer any questions regarding it. Air is much like water in this regard. thumb.gif

~Ceadder smil3dbd4e4c2e742.gif
Edited by Ceadderman - 5/9/12 at 12:45am
 
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post #20388 of 28303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post

I'm still trying to wrap my brain around this failed concept so I'm only going to address it because there is just too much fail in it. mellowsmiley.gif
Yeah air flows through the radiator but much of the time based on how Radiators are made, 100% of the air doesn't pass through cleanly. Not even when you add a shroud. There will always be some turbulence between the fan and the fins. That turbulence leads to blowback or more commonly known as cavitation.
Cavitation as you may hopefully understand will lessen the amount of flow. wink.gif
Ask your Pops about Cavitation. Him being a Navy man should be able to answer any questions regarding it. Air is much like water in this regard. thumb.gif
~Ceadder smil3dbd4e4c2e742.gif

Let me clarify because you aren't understanding what I'm saying. Air moving INTO the radiator when there is a fan on the other side will be travelling in a perpendicular direction to the "face" of the radiator before entering the fins. You add a fan to that side and now the dynamics change. Not onlyl do you have the affects of cavitation but the air is already travelling at a different angle as it leaves the blades of the fan then if there were no fan on that side to begin with. The point being that simply adding a fan to the other side doesn't just feed air indescriminately for the pull fan to use as has been suggested previously. So as I stated before unless the pull fan is slowed enough for the slower push fan to assist in overcoming the drag caused by the radiator it is going to add to the drag not reduce it. And we get right back to added drag causing added torque which causes added current etc. etc.

edit - i.e. you can't say "oh the delta is now only moving 80 CFM through the radiator so if I add a fan spec'd at 80 CFM then everything is all sunshine and roses".

Oh and by the way, I was an RM/IT for over 9 years. Just because your in the Navy doesn't mean you know everything about cavitation. Most wouldn't even be able to adequately describe the fundamentals of it as it has nothing whatsoever to do with their job and any encounter with it will be in a generally described sense. Hell, for over half that time I was in the specwar side not the haze grey side.
Edited by Bubba Hotepp - 5/9/12 at 1:25am
post #20389 of 28303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Hotepp View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post

I'm still trying to wrap my brain around this failed concept so I'm only going to address it because there is just too much fail in it. mellowsmiley.gif
Yeah air flows through the radiator but much of the time based on how Radiators are made, 100% of the air doesn't pass through cleanly. Not even when you add a shroud. There will always be some turbulence between the fan and the fins. That turbulence leads to blowback or more commonly known as cavitation.
Cavitation as you may hopefully understand will lessen the amount of flow. wink.gif
Ask your Pops about Cavitation. Him being a Navy man should be able to answer any questions regarding it. Air is much like water in this regard. thumb.gif
~Ceadder smil3dbd4e4c2e742.gif

Let me clarify because you aren't understanding what I'm saying. Air moving INTO the radiator when there is a fan on the other side will be travelling in a perpendicular direction to the "face" of the radiator before entering the fins. You add a fan to that side and now the dynamics change. Not onlyl do you have the affects of cavitation but the air is already travelling at a different angle as it leaves the blades of the fan then if there were no fan on that side to begin with. The point being that simply adding a fan to the other side doesn't just feed air indescriminately for the pull fan to use as has been suggested previously. So as I stated before unless the pull fan is slowed enough for the slower push fan to assist in overcoming the drag caused by the radiator it is going to add to the drag not reduce it. And we get right back to added drag causing added torque which causes added current etc. etc.

edit - i.e. you can't say "oh the delta is now only moving 80 CFM through the radiator so if I add a fan spec'd at 80 CFM then everything is all sunshine and roses".

Oh and by the way, I was an RM/IT for over 9 years. Just because your in the Navy doesn't mean you know everything about cavitation. Most wouldn't even be able to adequately describe the fundamentals of it as it has nothing whatsoever to do with their job and any encounter with it will be in a generally described sense. Hell, for over half that time I was in the specwar side not the haze grey side.

My Grandfather was a Radioman who served aboard the Battleship Arizona and by sheer luck narrowly escaped certain doom when he was disharged and said his farewell at Treasure Island on her final visit to the San Francisco bay. Won't get into the IT side of things but I'm an ex Deck Ape who worked with 26 and 40 foot MWB and Captain's Gig aboard a Battleship myself. I did more than that as well just not a specific Rate, but one thing I do know about is the flow dynamics of air and water. I've never once stated that the Pull fan relies on the Push fan to operate. I'm simply stating a fact that the Push fan will not overdrive the Pull fan seriously beyond it's limitations.

If I take a Yate Loon High Speed Silent and mount that as Push(2200 rpm) and mount a Yate Loon Low Speed Silent as Pull(1350) and apply manufacturers rated variance(+/- 10%) and taking Cavitation into account, there is no way you drive the Pull fan beyond it's limitation to such a degree that it flames out. In fact the resulting airflow would take the burden off the Pull fan and lower the amount of power required to keep it spinning at whatever speed it will run as a result of being driven by the Push fan.

It's relatively simple and by all means I have no problems with you being curious as to whether or not a seriously unmatched set of fans is bad on one or both fans. But standard 120x25 fans have been running Push/Pull for a very long time and the accepted rule of thumb is that the lower of the two fans is always Pull. Even matched sets have a variance to them due to the 10% rule. And the only way to make sure you get the correct setup is by running off a tached header at full speed and mounting them accordingly.

In any case you weren't accounting for cavitation and the negative effect it has on airflow and the resulting effect it has on CFM. wink.gif

~Ceadder smil3dbd4e4c2e742.gif
 
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post #20390 of 28303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post

My Grandfather was a Radioman who served aboard the Battleship Arizona and by sheer luck narrowly escaped certain doom when he was disharged and said his farewell at Treasure Island on her final visit to the San Francisco bay. Won't get into the IT side of things but I'm an ex Deck Ape who worked with 26 and 40 foot MWB and Captain's Gig aboard a Battleship myself. I did more than that as well just not a specific Rate, but one thing I do know about is the flow dynamics of air and water. I've never once stated that the Pull fan relies on the Push fan to operate. I'm simply stating a fact that the Push fan will not overdrive the Pull fan seriously beyond it's limitations.
If I take a Yate Loon High Speed Silent and mount that as Push(2200 rpm) and mount a Yate Loon Low Speed Silent as Pull(1350) and apply manufacturers rated variance(+/- 10%) and taking Cavitation into account, there is no way you drive the Pull fan beyond it's limitation to such a degree that it flames out. In fact the resulting airflow would take the burden off the Pull fan and lower the amount of power required to keep it spinning at whatever speed it will run as a result of being driven by the Push fan.
It's relatively simple and by all means I have no problems with you being curious as to whether or not a seriously unmatched set of fans is bad on one or both fans. But standard 120x25 fans have been running Push/Pull for a very long time and the accepted rule of thumb is that the lower of the two fans is always Pull. Even matched sets have a variance to them due to the 10% rule. And the only way to make sure you get the correct setup is by running off a tached header at full speed and mounting them accordingly.
In any case you weren't accounting for cavitation and the negative effect it has on airflow and the resulting effect it has on CFM. wink.gif
~Ceadder smil3dbd4e4c2e742.gif

I was on the Obrien for 3 years 1 year in D.G. and thought I was going to shore duty and ended up (what's called now) a 9613 (they were instituting that to close loop everyone in the community when I was leaving).

Anyways, I agree with you when you take fans that are reasonably matched (or mismatched) that they are going to work in tandem to help overcome the resistence caused by the fins in the radiator. But as the mismatch grows greater at some point the lower cfm fan is going to become an impediment instead of an assister to the flow of air. Think of it this way, take a water pump that can pump 1000 gallons of water per minute that can be varied. Stick it's output or input doesn't matter which to a radiator or anything else that might cause a restriction in flow. Now put a pump that can pump 100 gallons per minute. If you started the variable pump at 10 GPM and plotted the water speed on a chart vs pump speed, as you raised the speed of the pump you would end up with a curve. Once you get past the peak of the curve it's all added torque on the pump motor that gets higher and higher as you try to raise the pump speed higher and higher. The principle is the same for the fans attached to the radiator. Whether or not the motor in the fan or the pump burns out depends on it's current capacity and if it's exceeded.

*edit - to clarify as you climb the curve you're decreasing torque on pump one, after the peak as you drop you're increasing torque on pump two.
Edited by Bubba Hotepp - 5/9/12 at 10:41am
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