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post #21131 of 28311
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomcatV View Post

I really like that link above! BUT I take issue with "some" of his testing methodology ...
Quote: While I didn't complete the full series of tests, this was enough for me to see there is some emerging trends going on. The push vs. pull question appears to really depend on the fan power. I believe the gains in the 38mm showing more benefit in push is due to pressure and turbulence.
He's focused on max performance with the 38mm Scythe Ultra Kaze (Delta) and uses a somewhat "useless" slowspeed Yate Loon case fan (no static pressure?) for the more common 120x25mm fan/cooling tests ... So I agree with you in that seeing a 2-3c difference from a push config (no shroud) as opposed to a pull config may be a bit exaggerated, but his tests aren't representative of what a decent static pressure 120x25mm fan would show. With the right fan and setup I still feel the push config is superior even if it's only 1c possibly 2c difference (no shroud) wink.gif
No doubt 40 fans would do the trick tongue.gif ... maybe I'll take it a step further and replace my room air-conditioner with that set-up ... it would COST about the same ($400-$500) and looks "cooler"? rolleyes.gif

Agree 100% there TomcatV. His methodology must be taken with a bit of a grain of salt. I had the exact same opinion when I first saw this link. Unfortunately, it's the only one I've ever found that does a push vs pull test. I agree you might get about the same difference between push vs pull as you might see in Intake vs Exhaust. I did an Intake vs Exhaust test on my H70 and I got about a 1c difference under high GPU and CPU load. That test is buried in the 600T thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Step83 View Post

Got bored so tried a different layout, moved it from a rear exhaust to a roof exhaust. Actually dropped my temps surprisingly only by an average of 2C but the VRMs etc have cooled down about 6c.
As it is now Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
101_1931.jpg

That's the way I had my H70 mounted. Good job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post

Heat rises, so I'd have to assume that performance is wasted in a rear intake or exhaust setup whereas in a rooftop Exhaust setup, it's optimal for the system to rid itself of heat. thinking.gif
I tried rear exhaust an I just didn't like it. Not even a day went by when I immediately placed it in the top of my case. The VRM will increase somewhat in temp but not enough to do harm to the system imho. I was just glad that I didn't have to remove the 200 in the top of my Case while my Mainboard was still on air. That could really have sucked due to the NB issues these boards launched with. smile.gif
~Ceadder smil3dbd4e4c2e742.gif

According to Corsair George (and I personally agree with him because it makes sense), the tendency of warm air to rise is a very weak force compared to a fan. It's very easy to overcome that force using a fan.

In fact in this link:

http://www.overclock.net/t/831636/official-corsair-graphite-club/2010#post_13976813

He even suggests that for radial cooler video cards, you could use your top fans as intake and your front fan (200mm in this case) as exhaust. There is not enough force behind "warm air rising" to worry about basing your air flow from that. Unless, you're not using any fans at all.
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post #21132 of 28311
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mergatroid View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post

Heat rises, so I'd have to assume that performance is wasted in a rear intake or exhaust setup whereas in a rooftop Exhaust setup, it's optimal for the system to rid itself of heat. thinking.gif
I tried rear exhaust an I just didn't like it. Not even a day went by when I immediately placed it in the top of my case. The VRM will increase somewhat in temp but not enough to do harm to the system imho. I was just glad that I didn't have to remove the 200 in the top of my Case while my Mainboard was still on air. That could really have sucked due to the NB issues these boards launched with. smile.gif
~Ceadder smil3dbd4e4c2e742.gif

According to Corsair George (and I personally agree with him because it makes sense), the tendency of warm air to rise is a very weak force compared to a fan. It's very easy to overcome that force using a fan.

In fact in this link:

http://www.overclock.net/t/831636/official-corsair-graphite-club/2010#post_13976813

He even suggests that for radial cooler video cards, you could use your top fans as intake and your front fan (200mm in this case) as exhaust. There is not enough force behind "warm air rising" to worry about basing your air flow from that. Unless, you're not using any fans at all.

Ummm Merg I completely agree with that.

But it should still better based on the odd fact that exhausting upward using a fan would should be better than exhausting sideways with a fan. True? winksmiley.jpg

cheers.gif

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post #21133 of 28311
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbiker033 View Post

I got my fan mount accessory for my lian li test bench and was able to mount my radiator vertically.

I also ordered (4) SP120 high performance fans and am going to do a push/pull. Looks like plenty of room on the rad side for the fans to clear the sata ports and gpu's.
Much better install and cleaner.

That's looking really nice! biggrin.gif One suggestion though, when you get your 4 SP120's I'd reverse the direction of airflow you have now (so it exhausts away from the ram). You might even get lucky enough to lose the auxilary 120mm you have hanging over the moffets/cpu socket? rolleyes.gif
Additionally it would be nice if you did a "mini" review on all your different configs (idle/load-speeds-temps) and your opinion weather the push/pull was worth it or not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post

Heat rises, so I'd have to assume that performance is wasted in a rear intake or exhaust setup whereas in a rooftop Exhaust setup, it's optimal for the system to rid itself of heat. thinking.gif

I'm with you CMan, even though Merg makes a great case (Corsair George) ... it just doesn't sit right in my infinitesimally small brain to not cooperate with Mother Nature and take advantage of Physics though the improvement may be minuscule redface.gif
 
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post #21134 of 28311
Quote:
That's looking really nice! One suggestion though, when you get your 4 SP120's I'd reverse the direction of airflow you have now (so it exhausts away from the ram). You might even get lucky enough to lose the auxilary 120mm you have hanging over the moffets/cpu socket?
Additionally it would be nice if you did a "mini" review on all your different configs (idle/load-speeds-temps) and your opinion weather the push/pull was worth it or not?

Thank you!

So I received the (4) SP120 HP fans today and installed them. I considered what you said about reversing the air flow on the radiator fans but then it would be blowing on me as I sit pretty close to that corner of my desk so I have them towards the system. I do appreciate the input though.

I had to use a 3-pin extension on one of the fans (luckily I had one!) but here are the pictures of the result:





It does appear that the idle temps are lower and I did run some p95 small FFT's for ~ 15 min and max temps looks as though they would be very similar to my last testing with the stock fans on push. I will say though that the ambient temps are higher today than my testing the other day so with that said I think they definitely dropped by a few degrees C.
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post #21135 of 28311
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomcatV View Post

I'm with you CMan, even though Merg makes a great case (Corsair George) ... it just doesn't sit right in my infinitesimally small brain to not cooperate with Mother Nature and take advantage of Physics though the improvement may be minuscule redface.gif

If I remember correctly, heat rises very slowly. With proper airflow, that rule of mother nature is kind of thrown out the window...

What matters is where your hardware is dumping the heat and where you are directing it from there. Like most non-ref video cards dump hot air into the case and the way you set up your airflow pattern directs where it goes from there, be it towards the bottom of the case in the front, out the back or top of the case.

For example, TJ08-E matx cases bring air from the front to the bottom rear part of the case.
At the same time, non-ref cards (at least in my setup) dump the air towards the top of the case, this is why silverstone recommends having the PSU intake fan facing your video cards so that it grabs that hot air and exhausts it via the PSU.

Many times people have shown that the "Heat rises" argument isn't really valid with our current computer setups and crazy amounts of fans. It's been in many threads before this rolleyes.gif
post #21136 of 28311
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai707 View Post

If I remember correctly, heat rises very slowly. With proper airflow, that rule of mother nature is kind of thrown out the window...
What matters is where your hardware is dumping the heat and where you are directing it from there. Like most non-ref video cards dump hot air into the case and the way you set up your airflow pattern directs where it goes from there, be it towards the bottom of the case in the front, out the back or top of the case.
For example, TJ08-E matx cases bring air from the front to the bottom rear part of the case.
At the same time, non-ref cards (at least in my setup) dump the air towards the top of the case, this is why silverstone recommends having the PSU intake fan facing your video cards so that it grabs that hot air and exhausts it via the PSU.
Many times people have shown that the "Heat rises" argument isn't really valid with our current computer setups and crazy amounts of fans. It's been in many threads before this rolleyes.gif

I certainly don't disagree with your comments wink.gif ... but so much depends on the individuals setup/configuration and ultimately application ... I should have worded my statement just a bit differently ... i.e. ...

I'm with you CMan, even though Merg makes a great case (Corsair George) ... it just doesn't sit right in my infinitesimally small brain to not cooperate with Mother Nature (Physics), when you can but secondary to optimizing case air flow 1st! wink.gif



That looks even better! Now for your honest opinion, was the appx. $60 for the (4) SP120's well spent? ... @Max loads how much quieter, if any, did the new push/pull cofig achieve? New H100 owners are comming here all the time and I think your "new" input/observations would be very useful for them wink.gif
Edited by TomcatV - 9/28/12 at 1:14pm
 
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post #21137 of 28311
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomcatV View Post

I certainly don't disagree with your comments wink.gif ... but so much depends on the individuals setup/configuration and ultimately application ... I should have worded my statement just a bit differently ... i.e. ...
I'm with you CMan, even though Merg makes a great case (Corsair George) ... it just doesn't sit right in my infinitesimally small brain to not cooperate with Mother Nature (Physics), when you can but secondary to optimizing case air flow 1st! wink.gif

That looks even better! Now for your honest opinion, was the appx. $60 for the (4) SP120's well spent? ... @Max loads how much quieter, if any, did the new push/pull cofig achieve? New H100 owners are comming here all the time and I think your "new" input/observations would be very useful for them wink.gif

Overall I definitely feel it was worth the price based on performance and sound. I will perform the same testing as in my previous post (prime95 small fft) for an hour and post a comparison based on the results. Great suggestion.

Update

As I mentioned I ran 1 hour of smallFFT's on prime95 as a comparison to my original testing using the stock H100 fans, the results are as follows:

Original testing

using my signature rig with the i7-970 at 4200mhz 1.30vcore
H100 with stock fans in push
testing with prime95 small FFT for 1 hour, ambient temperature of 68 degrees F / 20 degrees C



I then received (4) Corsair SP120 High Performance and arranged them in push/pull with the same settings. Ambient temperatures were 72 degrees F / 22.2 degrees C



I did not notice any significant difference in the sound of fans and if anything the (4) SP120 HP's are quieter than the (2) stock fans. Overall I am very pleased with the results. With the stock fans, when putting the load on the cpu it was easy to detect an audible difference as the rans ramped up, with the SP120's their sound wasn't as perceptible.
Edited by mtbiker033 - 9/28/12 at 4:32pm
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post #21138 of 28311
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post

Ummm Merg I completely agree with that.
But it should still better based on the odd fact that exhausting upward using a fan would should be better than exhausting sideways with a fan. True? winksmiley.jpg
cheers.gif
~Ceadder smil3dbd4e4c2e742.gif

I can't say for sure. I have had many cases with rear exhaust fans, and only one with top exhaust fans. Both seemed to work fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai707 View Post

If I remember correctly, heat rises very slowly. With proper airflow, that rule of mother nature is kind of thrown out the window...
What matters is where your hardware is dumping the heat and where you are directing it from there. Like most non-ref video cards dump hot air into the case and the way you set up your airflow pattern directs where it goes from there, be it towards the bottom of the case in the front, out the back or top of the case.
For example, TJ08-E matx cases bring air from the front to the bottom rear part of the case.
At the same time, non-ref cards (at least in my setup) dump the air towards the top of the case, this is why silverstone recommends having the PSU intake fan facing your video cards so that it grabs that hot air and exhausts it via the PSU.
Many times people have shown that the "Heat rises" argument isn't really valid with our current computer setups and crazy amounts of fans. It's been in many threads before this rolleyes.gif

Agreed. I have also seen this discussion here and there on the 'net. I think overall it doesn't really make much difference (hot air rises), but that it never hurts if your fan orientation reinforces this natural movement of heat. I'm just pointing out that one doesn't have to base their airflow on it.
Nukeyork
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Nukeyork
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post #21139 of 28311
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbiker033 View Post

Thank you!
So I received the (4) SP120 HP fans today and installed them. I considered what you said about reversing the air flow on the radiator fans but then it would be blowing on me as I sit pretty close to that corner of my desk so I have them towards the system. I do appreciate the input though.
I had to use a 3-pin extension on one of the fans (luckily I had one!) but here are the pictures of the result:



It does appear that the idle temps are lower and I did run some p95 small FFT's for ~ 15 min and max temps looks as though they would be very similar to my last testing with the stock fans on push. I will say though that the ambient temps are higher today than my testing the other day so with that said I think they definitely dropped by a few degrees C.
Now that looks pretty awesome! thumb.gif
post #21140 of 28311
Hey guys hope this helps all of you wanting better cooling smile.gif

http://www.overclock.net/products/cooler-master-excalibur-r4-exbb-20pk-r0-120mm-case-fan

Tis my review on some fans that are better than the H80 stock fans smile.gif
Edited by AusNorman - 9/29/12 at 12:08am
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