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post #22001 of 28303
Quote:
Originally Posted by opforwarrior View Post



You are creating a vacume upstream from your pumphead, lowering the pressure... boiling the water ... pulling entrained air from the water, collapsing the bubbles... causing implosions... all very bad.

I've never heard air pockets being described in such an apocalyptic manner
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post #22002 of 28303
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmanstasiu View Post

I've never heard air pockets being described in such an apocalyptic manner


Air pockets are pressurized air... this stuff is like anti-matter. The opposite of an explosion. IMPLOSION! It cannot happen under normal atmospheric conditions. It's like the 2nd part of nuke blast... after the hot expansion of gasses... it contracts... sucking in everthing in its path. A black hole.


Images of impellers attacked by cavitation
https://www.google.com/search?q=impeller+attacked+cavitation&hl=en&tbo=d&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=FXkBUeX4KoqWrAGAooCYDA&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAA&biw=1466&bih=1108
Edited by opforwarrior - 1/24/13 at 5:08pm
post #22003 of 28303
"What's wrong? In laymans' terms"

"Collapsing pressurized anti-matter collapsing causing upstream vacuums in your pump, implosions not possible under atmospheric conditions"

"How do I fix THAT? eek.gif "

"Move the res higher"

"Oh."
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post #22004 of 28303
If you don't hear a grinding.growling noise, you are fine. If you do... look to your radiator/pumphead orientation.
post #22005 of 28303
Quote:
Originally Posted by opforwarrior View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
You have a piping/installation issue, not a pump issue... thus the same sound with multiple new units.

You are creating a vacume upstream from your pumphead, lowering the pressure... boiling the water ... pulling entrained air from the water, collapsing the bubbles... causing implosions... all very bad.

My guess is you have the rad lower than the pump... have a kink in the lines, have the tubes on the rad in the top position, etc. Proper flow is the concern , not the orientation of the corsair logo. With proper orientation, air will rise to the top of the system (top of radiator) and be reabsorbed into the fluid... DO NOT SHAKE!.

http://cdn.overclock.net/3/35/352dc0a6_SDC15185.jpeg

Pic of my set up... if you look closely, you will see that people with problem setups, dont look like mine. Their radiator is inverted. Also note the corsair logo... it is not "right side up", but this was how it fit (with tubes unkinked). Kinks and angles sharper than 90 degrees cause reduction in flow (also, friction, generates additional heat) and contribute to low suction pressure at the pumphead (resulting in cavitation) and reduced pumplife from increased resistance to flow (ie. shaft seals seeing higher pump housing pressure). This is a balanced system. Don't feel bad ... the professionals build multi-million dollar installations, that don't work, either.


PUMPSCHOOL

Commercial pump parts tutorial
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgsT1xuhu_k

Grundfos Pumps Cavitation - A lesson in cavitation. (disregard instructions on flowcontrol and monitoring, ours is a closed loop system)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS39vFp3haQ

The sound of cavitation in a commercial pump
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Lbxtjfdat4

With a plastic plate at the impeller to see the formation of air bubbles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O5W2JrFhc4

Quote:
Originally Posted by opforwarrior View Post

Usually I tell people to stop talking right there... You know nothing and have added nothing, but confusion, to the disscussion. Classic! LoL biggrin.gif
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
When I troubleshoot pump applications (usually, on the phone)... I only speak with the operator/engineer... and I ask things in such a way as to not give him the anwsers he thinks I want to hear. And I ask the questions two different ways, to catch erroneous info and assumptions. ( ie 3+3=6 ... 6-3=3)

Factory engineers and QC are 99.99% accurate. In my 20 years experience, 95% of all premature failure, is operator error.


Looking at his pics again... he is discharging his pumpage into the lower rad port. With the open loop system he has (in a closed loop system the return flow from the radiator is both pressurized and rushing to fill a low pressure vacume created by the pumphead), he should be pumping to the upper port, so as not to be fighting gravity on the fluid already in the radiator. ( "x" psi discharge pressure + 17 psi gravity, or, "x" psi discharge pressure - 17 psi gravity .. is a net gain/loss of 2x gravity or, 34+/- psi) as the Corsair pump cannot be operating below 20 psi or above 100 psi ... a net difference of up to 34 psi is a big deal. (Higher pressure = shorter component life)

Think of it as standing on your head vs. your feet... your heart must overcome the additional pressure of more blood over your heart/head... your head fills with blood. Or, an obese person having more stress upon the heart, due to the higher pressures needed to pump the same volume of blood.

Does anyone know what the shaft seal on these various H units are? I would guess HIGH Pressure lip seals in rubber or teflon (rated 15-50 psi at the low pressure center of the impeller) ... or carbon/ceramic springloaded face seals (30-75 psi at the impeller).

Note: Pressure measured at the low pressure "eye" of the impeller is 30-50% of the pressure at volute housing discharge nozzle... as fluid is non-compressible, pressures spike when discharge is throttled or deadheadded, blowing seals. Seals requre pressure to effect a seal, at zero system pressure (powered off) the spring loaded lips or faces prevent low pressure fluid from escaping along the shaft. The spring on a face seal is designed to produce 17-21 psi to counteract atmospheric pressure at varing altitudes, which seeks to open a leak path. Pressure has a second wear factor, lip and face wear is increased, when overpressured, causing increased heat and accelerated wear. If pressure increases more, the fluid lubricating the lip/face can be boiled or squeezed out, causing instant failure including spotwelding/siezing the faces (hardfaces). Very high pressure pumps, have engineered seals which uses physics priciples to reduce face load through hydraulicly balancing the faceted anlges and area of the sealhead, creating a great opening force to counteract the internal pressure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by opforwarrior View Post

Air pockets are pressurized air... this stuff is like anti-matter. The opposite of an explosion. IMPLOSION! It cannot happen under normal atmospheric conditions. It's like the 2nd part of nuke blast... after the hot expansion of gasses... it contracts... sucking in everthing in its path. A black hole.


impeller attacked cavitation
https://www.google.com/search?q=impeller+attacked+cavitation&hl=en&tbo=d&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=FXkBUeX4KoqWrAGAooCYDA&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAA&biw=1466&bih=1108

This is friggin AWESOME ... I use to work in sales for Ingersoll Rand ... so I can appreciate your insights/knowledge! ... and Yes "touch of Humor" thumb.gif

You might find THIS THREAD interesting ... or more likely frustrating??? rolleyes.gif

EDIT: Another +R for you ... I think I'm 2 for 2 biggrin.gif
Post your system specs? see my sig wink.gif
Edited by TomcatV - 1/24/13 at 11:00am
 
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Too Easy
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post #22006 of 28303
Opforwarrior,
What would you say about considering the use of a res on these H series pumps? I hear from some to stay away, i hear from others its fine.
I would like to know a professional opinion if the pump has enough pressure to withstand the back pressure of a res & extended lines.
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post #22007 of 28303
Quote:
Originally Posted by js593 View Post

Opforwarrior,
What would you say about considering the use of a res on these H series pumps? I hear from some to stay away, i hear from others its fine.
I would like to know a professional opinion if the pump has enough pressure to withstand the back pressure of a res & extended lines.


Sorry , no idea. I just installed an H50 that's been sitting NIB on the windowsill for 2 yrs. This is my 1st trip to the watercooled rodeo.


The flow from the rad to the rez is high pressure to an atmospheric (low) pressure, and should add no stress to the system, providing the pump isn't having to push the fluid uphill from the radiator.
post #22008 of 28303
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomcatV View Post

This is friggin AWESOME ... I use to work in sales for Ingersoll Rand ... so I can appreciate your insights/knowledge! ... and Yes "touch of Humor" thumb.gif

You might find THIS THREAD interesting ... or more likely frustrating??? rolleyes.gif

EDIT: Another +R for you ... I think I'm 2 for 2 biggrin.gif
Post your system specs? see my sig wink.gif




Thanks for the link to frustration ( I think?) ... Bearing noise is an interesting topic. Yes, a loose or malfunctioning bearing can rattle, but, on pumps, premature failure is caused by:

1) Leakage, past the seal, along the shaft rusting the bearing metals/ washing away lube.
2) Bent/deflecting shafts causing excessive runout, ruining the bearing race.
3) Excessive side loading of the pump impeller ( pressure too high, materials understrength, failure of thrust bearing, excessive tolerances etc.)
4) External forces

None of these is likely in the corsair setup. Cavitation is most likely culprit. Additionally, if it is an installation/piping issue... the factory engineers will be unable to duplicate your failure mode. Your RMA'd item will be QC'd and recertified.

The key here is the CLUE... most people who RMA end up having the same problem and RMA multiple units without success.

One bright spot, the (ABS?) plastic used in this pump has a high resistance to pitting due to implosion, much better than steel/bronze.


Current Build

Core i-5 3570K CPU
Intel DZ77GA-70K Extreme mobo
Corsair VengenceLP DDR3 1600 16GB kit (4x4GB) (CML16GX3M4A1600C9b) *certified w/mobo
H50 Cooler w/ x2 Couger Vortex HDB Fans (1200RPM , 60cfm, 1.73mmH2O, 17.7db) @ 100%
EVGA FTW GTX 660 ti Superclock 3GB w/ Backplate
Intel 520 120GB SATAIII SSD
Seagate 1TB SATAII HDD
Corsair TX850 PSU
Antec 902 Case w/ x2 Couger Vortex HDB Fans (1200RPM , 60cfm, 1.73mmH2O, 17.7db) @ 30%
Edited by opforwarrior - 1/24/13 at 5:50pm
post #22009 of 28303
Quote:
Originally Posted by opforwarrior View Post

You have a piping/installation issue, not a pump issue... thus the same sound with multiple new units.

You are creating a vacume upstream from your pumphead, lowering the pressure... boiling the water ... pulling entrained air from the water, collapsing the bubbles... causing implosions... all very bad.

My guess is you have the rad lower than the pump... have a kink in the lines, have the tubes on the rad in the top position, etc. Proper flow is the concern , not the orientation of the corsair logo. With proper orientation, air will rise to the top of the system (top of radiator) and be reabsorbed into the fluid... DO NOT SHAKE!.

http://cdn.overclock.net/3/35/352dc0a6_SDC15185.jpeg

Pic of my set up... if you look closely, you will see that people with problem setups, dont look like mine. Their radiator is inverted. Also note the corsair logo... it is not "right side up", but this was how it fit (with tubes unkinked). Kinks and angles sharper than 90 degrees cause reduction in flow (also, friction, generates additional heat) and contribute to low suction pressure at the pumphead (resulting in cavitation) and reduced pumplife from increased resistance to flow (ie. shaft seals seeing higher pump housing pressure). This is a balanced system. Don't feel bad ... the professionals build multi-million dollar installations, that don't work, either.


PUMPSCHOOL

Commercial pump parts tutorial
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgsT1xuhu_k

Grundfos Pumps Cavitation - A lesson in cavitation. (disregard instructions on flowcontrol and monitoring, ours is a closed loop system)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS39vFp3haQ

The sound of cavitation in a commercial pump
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Lbxtjfdat4

With a plastic plate at the impeller to see the formation of air bubbles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O5W2JrFhc4

Oh snap the tubes in my rad are indeed at the top. I will invert that right away.

Here's a pic of my setup before the inversion. Do you think the tubes turn too sharply where they meet the pump?

Edited by Snuckie7 - 1/24/13 at 4:26pm
post #22010 of 28303
The pic is upside down then?


If so, when you invert the radiator, you will have some more slack.... like mine, I rotated the pump head back 90 degrees so the logo is at the 9 o'clock position instead of upright at the 12 o'clock. This takes up the slack in a gentle arc without bends.

http://cdn.overclock.net/3/35/352dc0a6_SDC15185.jpeg (btw, this pic is prior to any cable management efforts)

It's less neat and pretty... the real reason some of you visually anal individuals are having problems. Bias and superstition cause most issues. Science isn't VOODOO.

I once had a Girlfriend who believed a car got better gas milage with a full tank. Although she was smarter than the avg woman and a national amatuer racing champ, she believed this because her brother once said you should keep the tank full. What he meant was, in Oregon, if you leave your tank on the empty side, the area of the interior of the fuel tank will collect condensation in proportion to the exposed area. The resulting water in your tank will get sucked into the engine (becasue your running on Empty all the time). Her full fuel tank (14 gal x 7.8lbs/gal) was like carting around an extra body all the time , resulting in a net loss of efficiency.

Bias and Assumption

On a side note, how many of you are aware that the same heat friction generated by bends over 90deg angle, in a water pipe... has the same effect on wiring? Tightly coiling powerlines can generate enough heat to cause the plastic insulation to catch fire. It increases resistance to electrical flow (and your powerbill). Did you know that tightly bundling data/powerlines will generate crosstalk and corrupt data, your network slowing under the burden of resent packets? Loose, ugly cables are the safest and transmit the cleanest signals. Balance this with your needs for airflow.



You have no sharp bends here but, you do have one line, taut without slack.... this CAN create a harmonic effect, like a stringed instrument, vibrating in sympathy to and amplifying sound in the fluid and flow of the pumpage pulse wave. This is a common symptom in the hanging of piping systems, both commercial and residential. Maybe you've heard noise in the pipes behind the wall when you turn the faucet on/off? Plumbers install anti-hammer devices to absorb/dampen the pulse wave. But they do little to handle the induced stresses of mis-hung pipes.
Edited by opforwarrior - 1/24/13 at 7:23pm
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