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post #22571 of 28247
the point is, pull is better than push for low rpm fans. .5*C is still a difference. i didnt say the chart showed a 10*C difference. pulling is prefered if you dont like cleaning your rad very often. push pull definitely makes a difference and even more so with shrouds on both fans with an h100. push/pull plus custom shrouds dropped my cpu temps 4-6* depending on ambient temp. to some people, every degree counts hence some people use their rads as intake. notice these were with different fans than stock h100. those things are god awful loud.
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post #22572 of 28247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart View Post

I would argue the exact opposite as Kizwan, but I'm a water cooling noob, so take this with a grain of salt. Everything I've read leads me to believe that pull is better, from a radiator cooling standpoint. Depending on how the air flow is in your case of course. I have my 3x120 fans on my 360 top rad pulling air in, and blowing down onto the GPU with the 140 exhausting out the back. Positive pressure (more intake than exhaust) is better for dust AND heat, from what I've read, and I've seen better temps with a postive pressure setup in my rig. I tried doing exhaust out the top and it didn't perform as well. My $0.02, FWIW. smile.gif

EDIT: you're smart for trying BOTH, so stick to that plan. Try both, see what works better in your case.
My bad on the push being recommended. The difference on performance between the push & pull is very little. I still preferred push than pull since the fans I use are high static pressure. Using it for pull will make them underutilized IMO.

In high ambient environment, which I did emphasize this in my previous post, negative pressure is the best. In my previous build, I use positive pressure with one high CFM fan at the back as exhaust. It did worked well in colder day but not in hotter day. After changed to negative pressure, temps much lower in hotter day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mergatroid View Post

You should check out the 600T thread. One more added benefit of using exhaust (especially in the 600T) is that you don't get as much dust in the rad. The 600T front intake has a dust filter on it, which filters out a majority of the dust. If you use your H100 as intake, you would be pulling a lot of dust into the rad since the top of the case has no dust filter.
Note, you can get dust filters for the 600T here:

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/14346/ffi-88/DEMCiflex_Corsair_600T_Magnetic_Dust_Fan_Filter_Set_-_4_Piece.html

Not sure if they sell them separately.

You can check on various sites on the net, such as this one:

http://martinsliquidlab.i4memory.com/Radiator-Fan-Orientation-And-Shroud-Testing-Review.html

to see that the actual temperature difference between push and pull is almost nothing (less than 1c), so there really isn't any common recommendation to use push over pull (I'd be interested to see a link showing otherwise).
The following chart shows the temperature difference between push and pull using 25mm thick fans:

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

from the above link. Note that most of the testing done above this point in the first 3/4 of the article are for 38mm fans, and 38mm shrouds, not 25mm fan and 25mm shrouds. So, the information in that area may not be as applicable to 25mm fans, while the chart above is specifically for 25mm thick fans.

Using my H100 as exhaust in my 600T, when I clean my case once every two or three months, there is almost zero dust in my rad.

If you get a good fan controller, you can actually control whether your rig is using positive or negative pressure. On my rig, when I turn my intake fans up all the way, I get a good positive pressure. If you just use the 600T built-in fan controller, you have no control over this since it adjusts both the intake and exhaust fans at the same time.
My C70 case also have dust filter on the front & at the bottom. I use negative pressure & there is little dust accumulated in the case even after some time. Mind you, my house does have serious dust problem (old house) but dust accumulated in the case is minimal, almost 5 months now since the last time I clean up my case. My H100 radiator does take a toll though, dust accumulated on the radiator after some time (push + exhaust config). Still, almost up to 5 months & the radiator still look clean.
Edited by kizwan - 4/10/13 at 2:01pm
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post #22573 of 28247
Quote:
Originally Posted by pc-illiterate View Post

low rpm fans are better for pull while high rpm fans favor push.

copied from here( the bottom of the page)

http://martinsliquidlab.petrastech.com/Radiator-Fan-Orientation-And-Shroud-Testing-Review.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by pc-illiterate View Post

the point is, pull is better than push for low rpm fans. .5*C is still a difference. i didnt say the chart showed a 10*C difference. pulling is prefered if you dont like cleaning your rad very often. push pull definitely makes a difference and even more so with shrouds on both fans with an h100. push/pull plus custom shrouds dropped my cpu temps 4-6* depending on ambient temp. to some people, every degree counts hence some people use their rads as intake. notice these were with different fans than stock h100. those things are god awful loud.

I tend to agree with Kizwan when you are talking about the H100/i series that has a high density fin spacing, thin radiator (27mm). You were right initially, forget the "my bad" comment. Pull is not better than Push with high quality static pressure fans even down to the 1300rpm range! The article above by Martin is dated with relevance to the newer H100 AIO's systems with extremely low flow rates/high density-thin radiators. The radiator used in the article above is nothing like the H100/i radiator, it is 35mm thick and has a less dense fin spacing. Additionally who would replace the fairly decent stock fans with a cheap no static pressure Yate Loon (D12SL-12) open chassis fan used in the graph below redface.gif

Yate Loon specs [HERE]

Using this graph for a H100/i setup is like comparing apples to oranges ...



Martin has recently finished his H100i review [HERE] It is very well done! With some envious H220 comparisons. Read it in detail, it's 10 pages full of answer's to questions that get asked in this forum all the time. And some info I was not aware of like did you know that the new H100i has gone back to using a steel pump shaft over the typically preferred ceramic shaft used in the old H100 rolleyes.gif Also has some great Noise vs Performance charts and even dBA measuring video's.

I would also highly recommend reading the "Comments" section below the article for a very interesting discussion between "citicalthinker" and Martin about pumps, flow rates, voltages and how Corsair engineers such an efficient system with incredibly Low flow rates.

More quotes I gleamed from Martin's review ...
http://martinsliquidlab.org/2013/03/13/corsair-hydro-series-h100i-aio-cpu-cooler/

"While radiators normally are extremely low in restriction, that is not the case with the H100i. It must have very thin tubes to make it perform well at very low flow rates as the restriction is about 6X more than most radiators I’ve tested.

I forgot to measure the fin spacing, but it is a little more dense than the H220. It looks more like the RS240 fin spacing than it does the H220. This means it is more optimized for high-speed fans but a little too dense for optimal performance using slow speed fans.

I would not recommend expansion or modification to the sealed loop. Keep your warranty and leave it alone, any expansion will require lower restriction CPU block and likely more pumping power. The very low 0.11GPM max flow rate is far too slow to do much expansion with."


This helps understand why higher static pressure fans a very important for a H100/i AIO type system to perform optimally. There is also some interesting info/graph's on the AP-15 confirming what many of us have been saying all along. It has it's drawbacks but is still hard to beat if you feel you must replace your quite capable stock fans thumb.gif
 
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post #22574 of 28247
Sorry, but it doesn't really show. There's 2 140mm fans in the top that I use for intake
post #22575 of 28247
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomcatV View Post

You were right initially, forget the "my bad" comment.
My bad. tongue.gif I should have trusted myself, usually I am.
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post #22576 of 28247
Quote:
Originally Posted by kizwan View Post

My bad. tongue.gif I should have trusted myself, usually I am.
Hey, you were only opposed by one idiot noob (me), and it wasn't really opposition, just stating what I found worked best in the system I had at the time. smile.gif Some good info popping up here. I love good productive discussions that don't degenerate into flame-age!
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post #22577 of 28247
Quote:
Originally Posted by pc-illiterate View Post

the point is, pull is better than push for low rpm fans. .5*C is still a difference. i didnt say the chart showed a 10*C difference. pulling is prefered if you dont like cleaning your rad very often. push pull definitely makes a difference and even more so with shrouds on both fans with an h100. push/pull plus custom shrouds dropped my cpu temps 4-6* depending on ambient temp. to some people, every degree counts hence some people use their rads as intake. notice these were with different fans than stock h100. those things are god awful loud.

I'm only pointing out that the temperature difference is negligible. Also, push or pull really doesn't affect dust, only exhaust or intake does (however, in this particular case with a 600T, setting up the H100 stock, pull would be exhaust and push would be intake).
There are people in this very thread who got no difference when adding a shroud to a Corsair Hydro cooler. There are others who have gotten no difference adding a second set of fans (including Corsair). Perhaps the air flow properties of your case had some effect, considering Corsair's tests were in a lab?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kizwan View Post

My bad on the push being recommended. The difference on performance between the push & pull is very little. I still preferred push than pull since the fans I use are high static pressure. Using it for pull will make them underutilized IMO.

In high ambient environment, which I did emphasize this in my previous post, negative pressure is the best. In my previous build, I use positive pressure with one high CFM fan at the back as exhaust. It did worked well in colder day but not in hotter day. After changed to negative pressure, temps much lower in hotter day.
My C70 case also have dust filter on the front & at the bottom. I use negative pressure & there is little dust accumulated in the case even after some time. Mind you, my house does have serious dust problem (old house) but dust accumulated in the case is minimal, almost 5 months now since the last time I clean up my case. My H100 radiator does take a toll though, dust accumulated on the radiator after some time (push + exhaust config). Still, almost up to 5 months & the radiator still look clean.

Agree that cases with intake dust filters are "da bomb". As for neg vs pos pressure, the big difference is that neg pressure causes air to flow into the case through any little crack or seam or hole in the case (such as USB ports, and seams between the case and the optical bay covers). This can cause an accumulation of dust at those points. With pos pressure, all the seams, cracks and holes are exhausting air, not pulling it in, and therefore do not accumulate dust.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomcatV View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
I tend to agree with Kizwan when you are talking about the H100/i series that has a high density fin spacing, thin radiator (27mm). You were right initially, forget the "my bad" comment. Pull is not better than Push with high quality static pressure fans even down to the 1300rpm range! The article above by Martin is dated with relevance to the newer H100 AIO's systems with extremely low flow rates/high density-thin radiators. The radiator used in the article above is nothing like the H100/i radiator, it is 35mm thick and has a less dense fin spacing.
Additionally who would replace the fairly decent stock fans with a cheap no static pressure Yate Loon (D12SL-12) open chassis fan used in the graph below redface.gif

Yate Loon specs [HERE]
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Using this graph for a H100/i setup is like comparing apples to oranges ...



Martin has recently finished his H100i review [HERE] It is very well done! With some envious H220 comparisons. Read it in detail, it's 10 pages full of answer's to questions that get asked in this forum all the time. And some info I was not aware of like did you know that the new H100i has gone back to using a steel pump shaft over the typically preferred ceramic shaft used in the old H100 rolleyes.gif Also has some great Noise vs Performance charts and even dBA measuring video's.

I would also highly recommend reading the "Comments" section below the article for a very interesting discussion between "citicalthinker" and Martin about pumps, flow rates, voltages and how Corsair engineers such an efficient system with incredibly Low flow rates.

More quotes I gleamed from Martin's review ...
http://martinsliquidlab.org/2013/03/13/corsair-hydro-series-h100i-aio-cpu-cooler/

"While radiators normally are extremely low in restriction, that is not the case with the H100i. It must have very thin tubes to make it perform well at very low flow rates as the restriction is about 6X more than most radiators I’ve tested.

I forgot to measure the fin spacing, but it is a little more dense than the H220. It looks more like the RS240 fin spacing than it does the H220. This means it is more optimized for high-speed fans but a little too dense for optimal performance using slow speed fans.

I would not recommend expansion or modification to the sealed loop. Keep your warranty and leave it alone, any expansion will require lower restriction CPU block and likely more pumping power. The very low 0.11GPM max flow rate is far too slow to do much expansion with."


This helps understand why higher static pressure fans a very important for a H100/i AIO type system to perform optimally. There is also some interesting info/graph's on the AP-15 confirming what many of us have been saying all along. It has it's drawbacks but is still hard to beat if you feel you must replace your quite capable stock fans thumb.gif

The link to the Frozen CPU specifications for the Yate Loon fans does not list Static Pressure. However, if you check out this review:

http://www.overclock.net/t/819736/yate-loon-d12sh-12-round-up-review-56k-no

which very thoroughly tests Yate Loons, you will see that they are actually pretty decent fans. You can find other articles and reviews and fan roundups (some right here on ocn) that specifically say Yate Loons are some of the best budget fans on a rad for performance vs noise.

Also, in fact, if you search this very thread for "Yate Loons" you will see extensive discussions of them earlier in the thread. One fellow quite swears by them as great rad fans for low noise applications.

Edit:

It's funny when you've been a member of a thread like this for so long, and you see information earlier in the thread about a particular subject, and then a year or two later more information about the same subject only it completely contradicts the information earlier in the thread. It does show who has read and who has not read the entire thread though (no offense intended to anyone. We can't all read all of such a large thread unless we joined it fairly early).
Edited by Mergatroid - 4/10/13 at 6:43pm
Nukeyork
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Nukeyork
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post #22578 of 28247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart View Post

Hey, you were only opposed by one idiot noob (me), and it wasn't really opposition, just stating what I found worked best in the system I had at the time. smile.gif Some good info popping up here. I love good productive discussions that don't degenerate into flame-age!
I also enjoy good productive discussions. I usually chose my words carefully but since English is my second language I might offended someone without knowing. tongue.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mergatroid View Post

Agree that cases with intake dust filters are "da bomb". As for neg vs pos pressure, the big difference is that neg pressure causes air to flow into the case through any little crack or seam or hole in the case (such as USB ports, and seams between the case and the optical bay covers). This can cause an accumulation of dust at those points. With pos pressure, all the seams, cracks and holes are exhausting air, not pulling it in, and therefore do not accumulate dust.
I agree with you. My previous build has lot of dust accumulated in it after I changed to negative pressure, even at some point I stop cleaning it because dust accumulated very fast. Ambient here is very high, depends on the whether, it can go down to 29 - 30C. In this range the air still cooler & all is well with my positive pressure setup but when it go up to 32 - 36C, the air become hotter & my rig with positive pressure take a toll where the hot air heating up inside the case before the exhaust fan got them out. I can feels the side panel warming up. My current build much better in term of dust accumulation because of the dust filters. The only place dust accumulated a lot is on the radiator which I usually need to clean them once every 4 to 5 months. Currently almost up to 5 months & it still clean. Hopefully it continue this way for another months.
Edited by kizwan - 4/10/13 at 8:54pm
Superhero Effect
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post #22579 of 28247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mergatroid View Post

The link to the Frozen CPU specifications for the Yate Loon fans does not list Static Pressure. However, if you check out this review:

http://www.overclock.net/t/819736/yate-loon-d12sh-12-round-up-review-56k-no

which very thoroughly tests Yate Loons, you will see that they are actually pretty decent fans. You can find other articles and reviews and fan roundups (some right here on ocn) that specifically say Yate Loons are some of the best budget fans on a rad for performance vs noise.

Also, in fact, if you search this very thread for "Yate Loons" you will see extensive discussions of them earlier in the thread. One fellow quite swears by them as great rad fans for low noise applications.

Edit:

It's funny when you've been a member of a thread like this for so long, and you see information earlier in the thread about a particular subject, and then a year or two later more information about the same subject only it completely contradicts the information earlier in the thread. It does show who has read and who has not read the entire thread though (no offense intended to anyone. We can't all read all of such a large thread unless we joined it fairly early).

OK I stand corrected on the SP, and will admit I was a bit too harsh on the Yate Loons. In fact as a Semi-Old-Timer here ... if you search this thread you'd see I actually recommended them in the past but only for those that are flat broke and had to have a replacement. Because they are so cheap they became popular with the custom-loop guys running multiple 360 rads in push/pull. And the quality can vary a lot depending on which vendor you purchase from, Horror stories abound with early failure and odd noises within months of installation, unless you take the time to re-lube them yourself. I still don't think they beat out the AP-15 for a replacement when it comes to the H100/i setup for all the reasons I linked above. The H100/i radiator is engineered differently than your typical higher quality copper custom- loop rad, which was my main point above wink.gif

Nice job Merg, it's good to see your not slipping a bit in your years of service to this thread thumb.gif
 
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Too Easy
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post #22580 of 28247
Can anyone give me some ideas for a custom curve for the H80i? I want it to fluctuate with the temperatures...does anyone have any curve profiles set up?
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