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post #10691 of 13132
Sure sure blame Ceadderman. Everyone always does at some point or other.

~Ceadder
 
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post #10692 of 13132
Quote:
Originally Posted by incurablegeek View Post
Yeh, I did know this. I did not know that the speed increase was that much of an advantage. All I know, from lots of reading about but no experience with, is that RAID has a reputation for being about as rewarding as "Pushing $hit Uphill". (A Special Thanks and a Shout Out to Kahbrohn for enlightening the masses. )

My question remains: Why oh why does anyone who plays games or is a home user (and not setting up servers for Amazon.com) need a headache like RAID?

And thanks as always to Ceadderman for taking me seriously and realizing that I am not trying to create turmoil (well, not at the moment anyway ) but rather just fishing for information myself and in the process making people think and not just play "follow the leader".
I have 4 hard drives set up in raid 0 it runs so fast that i can play 2 games at once
 
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post #10693 of 13132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post
Actually RAID almost doubles the speed of a conventional HDD, because all the information is stored in stripes split into how many ever bits to fit on more than one HDD. The smaller the stripe the faster the array. It's much faster than a standard HDD. RAID really is only important in seek and load times. Write times will essentially be the same, maybe a little slower. But I'm not sure of the write speeds when split between more than one drive.

Oh and RAID0 doesn't back anything up. It's like having a std conventional HDD without the ability to backup your data. If my RAID were to go down I would have to figure out which HDD is bad replace it and start over.

But if I were to use a HDD with the same capacity as my RAID, I could store the information as +1 and then my data would be backed up. Not sure if just plugging it in would induce the RAID to autosave to the new HDD, but I wouldn't care because I could do it myself if I had to.

~Ceadder
I read that standard programs send information in a sequence to the drives for writing and the only way to speed up RAID writing speeds is to send data in parallel so both drives recieve the stripe data at the same time, doubling the write speed.

Also smaller stripe sizes aren't always faster either it depends on the size of the file you are writing or accessing some servers use 1mb or 2mb stripes dependant on the size of the files stored.

Generally I think 32/64/128 (bit /byte whatever) are about the norm on home PC's you need to bench the array to find the best.
post #10694 of 13132
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamlongtime View Post
I read that standard programs send information in a sequence to the drives for writing and the only way to speed up RAID writing speeds is to send data in parallel so both drives recieve the stripe data at the same time, doubling the write speed.

Also smaller stripe sizes aren't always faster either it depends on the size of the file you are writing or accessing some servers use 1mb or 2mb stripes dependant on the size of the files stored.

Generally I think 32/64/128 (bit /byte whatever) are about the norm on home PC's you need to bench the array to find the best.
I run 128. So I think that we can agree the other two would be faster.

~Ceadder
 
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post #10695 of 13132
Quote:
Originally Posted by incurablegeek View Post
Yeh, I did know this. I did not know that the speed increase was that much of an advantage. All I know, from lots of reading about but no experience with, is that RAID has a reputation for being about as rewarding as "Pushing $hit Uphill". (A Special Thanks and a Shout Out to Kahbrohn for enlightening the masses. )

My question remains: Why oh why does anyone who plays games or is a home user (and not setting up servers for Amazon.com) need a headache like RAID?

And thanks as always to Ceadderman for taking me seriously and realizing that I am not trying to create turmoil (well, not at the moment anyway ) but rather just fishing for information myself and in the process making people think and not just play "follow the leader".
I set RAID up so that I had a 2TB HDD for my system folder, iamlongtime so all downloads vids audio and all that BS are on a seperate and large enough drive.



When I re-install the SSD all the data is still there and I just have to locate the system folders again
post #10696 of 13132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post
I run 128. So I think that we can agree the other two would be faster.

~Ceadder
EDIT... Yup!! (Goooot iiit iiiin theee eeend, he who laughs last thinks slowest!)

For anyone looking to stripe this explains a lot easily...(Thankyou Techspot)

Stripe Sizes
We suspect that many of you out there are interested in RAID for its performance advantage. Stripe sizes play a very important role in the performance of RAID arrays and thus it is critical to understand the concept of striping before we delve any further into RAID discussion.

As we mentioned before, stripes are blocks of a single file that are broken into smaller pieces. The stripe size, or the size that the data is broken into, is user definable and can range from 1KB to 1024KB or more. The way it works is when data is passed to the RAID controller, it is divided by the stripe size to create 1 or more blocks. These blocks are then distributed among drives in the array, leaving different pieces on different drives.

Like we discussed before, the information can be written faster because it is as if the hard drive is writing a smaller file, although it is really only writing pieces of a large file. At the same time, reading the data is faster because the blocks of data can be read off of all the drives in the array at the same time, so reading back a large file may only require the reading of two smaller files on two different hard drives at the same time.

There is quite a bit of debate surrounding what stripe size is best. Some claim that the smaller the stripe the better, because this ensures that no matter how small the original data is it will be distributed across the drives. Others claim that larger stripes are better since the drive is not always being taxed to write information.

To understand how a RAID card reacts to different stripe sizes, let's use the most drastic cases as examples. We will assume that there are 2 drives setup in a RAID 0 stripe array that has one of two stripe sizes: a 2KB stripe and a 1024KB stripe. To demonstrate how the stripe sizes influence the reading and writing of data, we will use also use two different data sizes to be written and read: a 4KB file and a 8192KB file.

On the first RAID 0 array with a 2KB stripe size, the array is happy to receive the 4KB file. When the RAID controller receives this data, it is divided into two 2KB blocks. Next, one of the 2KB blocks is written to the first disk in the array and the second 2KB blocks is written to the second disk in the array. This, in theory, divides the work that a single hard drive would have to do in half, since the hard drives in the array only have to write a single 2KB file each.

When reading back, the outcome is just as pretty. If the original 4KB file is needed, both hard drives in the array move to and read a single 2KB block to reconstruct the 4KB file. Since each hard drive works independently and simultaneously, the speed of reading the 4KB file back should be the same as reading a single 2KB file back.

This pretty picture changes into a nightmare when we try to write the 8192KB file. In this case, to write the file, the RAID controller must break it into no less than 4096 blocks, each 2KB in size. From here, the RAID card must pass pairs of the blocks to the drives in the array, wait for the drive to write the information, and then send the next 2KB blocks. This process is repeated 4096 times and the extra time required to perform the breakups, send the information in pieces, and move the drive actuator to various places on the disk all add up to an extreme bottleneck.

Reading the information back is just as painful. To recreate the 8192KB file, the RAID controller must gather information from 4096 places on each drive. Once again, moving the hard drive head to the appropriate position 4096 times is quite time consuming.

Now let's move to the same array with a 1024KB stripe size. When writing a 4KB file, the RAID array in this case does essentially nothing. Since 4 is not divisible by 1024 in a whole number, the RAID controller just takes the 4KB file and passes it to one of the drives on the array. The data is not split, or striped, because of the large stripe size and therefore the performance in this instance should be identical to that of a single drive.

Reading back the file results in the same story. Since the data is only stored on one drive in our array, reading back the information from the array is just like reading back the 4KB file from a single disk.

The RAID 0 array with the 1024KB stripe size does better when it comes to the 8192KB file. Here, the 8192KB file is broken into eight blocks of 1024KB in size. When writing the data, both drives in the array receive 4 blocks of the data meaning that each drive only has the task of writing four 1024KB files. This increase the writing performance of the array, since the drives work together to write a small number of blocks. At the same time reading back the file requires four 1024KB files to be read back from each drive. This holds a distinct advantage over reading back a single 8192KB file.

As you can see, the performance of various stripe sizes differ greatly depending on the situation. Just what stripe size should you use?
Edited by iamlongtime - 8/4/11 at 3:45pm
post #10697 of 13132
Quote:
I have 4 hard drives set up in raid 0 it runs so fast that i can play 2 games at once
Yeh, we use our computers for very different things. I don't use RAID cause I don't GAME and I don't have the time to learn any more new things. As the little boy said in the "Flight of the Navigator" movie (yeh, I liked it. Now What! ), "my brain is leaking out my ears" already.

SSD's are truly F-A-S-T and since I use my computers for work (and for annoying you guys ), I save the time I would waste in learning a whole new (and I believe) sure to be obsolete soon technology by buying an SSD (actually 2 of them - and they're about the best investments I have ever made). And as we all know, SSD's do nothing to increase game-playing speed. (Where is the emoticon for a Big Ole Yawn when I need it? )


(Please note: sure to be obsolete soon has been inserted so as to arouse to action those die-hard fans of a dying technology. SCSI anyone?
Edited by incurablegeek - 8/4/11 at 4:08pm
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post #10698 of 13132
Talking of RAID, what about the difference of an onboard RAID controller versus an add on card RAID solution, like from 3ware etc.?

Historically I heard onboard controllers were little faster than single drives as much of the work was done in software and thru the CPU, thus causing a performance hit, and add on cards had hardware control and in some cases additional memory on the card for cache.
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post #10699 of 13132
A nice little discussion that puts RAID (as an obsolete technology) into proper perspective.

http://www.maximumpc.com/forums/view...p?f=1&t=111947

I don't learn about or need RAID for the same reason that I don't fly in a biplane when I'm going overseas.

Just Google "RAID technology obsolete", "why RAID arrays", etc. and you will find out that RAID is just as obsolete as SCSI and for the same reasons. (and those reasons are your homework for the day )
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post #10700 of 13132
Quote:
Originally Posted by incurablegeek View Post
A nice little discussion that puts RAID (as an obsolete technology) into proper perspective.

http://www.maximumpc.com/forums/view...p?f=1&t=111947

I don't learn about or need RAID for the same reason that I don't fly in a biplane when I'm going overseas.

Just Google "RAID technology obsolete", "why RAID arrays", etc. and you will find out that RAID is just as obsolete as SCSI and for the same reasons. (and those reasons are your homework for the day )
As much as I like MaxPC, I think they're off they're nut about this. Until SSD is cheaper and more cost effective. Also just cause Win8 is going to be "cloud" technology I will not be using it. So RAID is just as effective as ever. Will it be obsolete? Eventually. But eventually the Sun will expand and swallow the earth. I'm not gonna sweat it til that day comes.

~Ceadder
 
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