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[LAT] Runaway Prius hits 90 mph before stopping with aid of CHP - Page 22

post #211 of 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuntz View Post
Not in my opinion. I've owned Toyota vehicles my whole life, and I'm the only person I know not plagued with constant vehicle issues like my American car owning friends and family members. Toyota is experiencing an isolated incident that can happen to any company, in any industry. Remember Seagate and the bricking firmware? That doesn't stop me from buying their products. These things are fluke accidents and mistakes, you can't hold a company responsible for them since they are unavoidable.
I think you can hold them responsible for a problem such as this.

Granted, I have no problem with Toyota (I drive one myself), but they still pushed out a product for years with a fault, and tried to cover it up at first.

Hopefully this issue will cause them to slow down, look at what they did wrong and redesign and improve their testing and fail safe systems.
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post #212 of 400
Have there been any reports of these incidents outside the United States? I have not been able to find anything from Europe or Asia and I wonder how it is possible that parts would only malfunction in one specific country.

I suspect that this is like the Audi 'sudden acceleration' problem - driver error and blaming their car rather than accepting personal responsibility. I also expect that there will be a lot of lawsuits filed over these 'incidents'
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post #213 of 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by BizzareRide View Post
Perhaps, but the best automatic transmission's are superior to a manual gearbox.

Auto manufacturers are moving away from manuals and only offering them purely as a nostalgic resonance... Simple as a tool to appease the "Purist."


No... Modern automated manuals are far superior to mechanical manual transmissions.

The 8-speed automatic in the Lexus ISF



This sums up manual transmissions, and the parasitic loss involved:



Ferrari's F1 gearbox
Nissans' Dual-clutch gearbox in the GT-R
Porsche's 7-speed Dopplekuplung(PDK) in the Panamera, Turbo, Cayman and 911.

Manual transmissions aren't offered in most of the cars I listed because they are obsolete to their dual-clutch couterpart.

The reason is because the gear-shifts are impossible for a human to replicate in something like a DCT along with gear ratios that are fixed for every scenario. This eliminates "rev matching" to find an engines power band.

And something tells me that you haven't driven a modern DCT or DSG gearbox because it allows you to slow the car down by downshifting also.

This is called a "jake brake" in trucks. A mechanism that allows the engine to slow the vehicle down.

And this "driver involvement" argument has no legs because you can only argue this circumstantially, not factually. There is nothing stopping a driver of a manual gear-box from doing other frivolous things while drive. Conversely, there isn't anything stopping a automatic driver from being more attentive than a manual gear-box driver.
I love when my posts are picked and torn apart...

Auto gearboxes with a slushy connection will ALWAYS be less efficient, less powerful and slower than a direct, mechanical connection, period.

A F1 gearbox does not have a torque converter, it doesn't suffer from that problem. Of course a computer can switch gears faster than a human. That's common sense. But the transmission will still suck if it uses a torque converter.

The auto Camry vs the 5spd Camry will be slower, less responsive, less efficient and be even less fun to drive. Go look at the numbers, EPA mileage, etc. Prove me wrong.

Maybe I should have raged about torque converters instead of auto trannys
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post #214 of 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by kremtok View Post
Power assist on the brakes is necessary. All braking systems have some sort of accumulator that will keep pressure in the system and allow a limited amount of stopping power before being drained, but once the power assist is gone, so is your ability to stop. Try it with your car the next time you stop. Turn off the key, then step on the breaks. In a few hard pumps, the pedal will become rock hard and that means your accumulator has run out and your stoping power is gone. At this point, only the emergency brake can stop you, but not nearly as quickly as the full braking system can.
My 1985 Ford F150 has power brakes. Only, the power part doesn't work. I can't tell you why, but the booster quit boosting.


I can still lock all four tires up if I want to. It's not that difficult. If anything, the brakes in that truck are better without power assist. With it it's like stepping on a pillow, you can't feel the brakes, without it you can feel what the brakes are doing much better.


You can stop a power assisted car when the power assist lets go. You just have to man up and stomp the brakes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagoshi View Post
vvvvvvvvv


What he said. The brake becomes rock hard but you can still brake. You just need to apply more force, and it will brake slower. I haven't done it at these speeds, but I enjoy cutting the engine when getting in my entryway and I lose power steering and power brakes while parking. It IS possible - just like a car that has none of these.

If the driver had half a brain tho you'd use both the brakes AND the handbrake... and if I had a new car that had these issues I wouldn't hesitate to put the car into the park position.
Putting it in Park will do nothing that putting it in NEutral won't do. The Parking pawl will NOT engage over a walking speed, it will just click around and eventually break off. Then your transmission is toast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dham View Post
Yea this is true. I drove a straight drive since before I got my permit up until recently. Around 6 years. It's all I ever drove. When I got an automatic I instantly felt like I had no control over the car and it still feels weird to this day. It's been 8 months. I like the automatic in stop and go traffic but other than that I prefer a straight drive(manual).
Same

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kip69 View Post
You two get your horse and buggy out of my way. I like having ABS and air bags thank you. It can go too far though. Look up the "Luxgen", a Taiwan made car. Its controlled by an HTC phone running windows!
At least my horse and buggy doesn't randomly run away on me because of an ECU glitch, doesn't try to drive itself and generally lets me do the driving. You know, the way it should be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willis888 View Post
Why is drive-by-wire being used at all? Is it cheaper to produce than cables and hydraulics?
Technology and driver's AIDS sell cars. Society wants an alphabet soup of useless electronic aids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lt.JD View Post
Electronic Stability Control and the Traction Control System in modern cars save lives... also ESC will be standard in every new car sold after 2012.
Remind me not to buy a new car after 2012 that can not have the ESC disabled. Damnit, I'm the driver, I'm in charge of this car. If I want to do a burnout, I'm going to do one, and if I screw up I expect to go through the Pearly Gates on fire!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ljason8eg View Post
Big difference between a car that doesn't have power steering to begin with when you compare it to a car that loses its power steering. The car that loses power steering will be harder to steer than the one that doesn't have it to begin with
But still not impossible to steer. I drove my F150 for a week with no power steering. IT's a pain in the ass trying to park, but once you hit second gear it's no different than boosted steering.


Quote:
Lol pushing the brakes harder won't make it stop any faster. When the pedal is all the way down, pushing harder won't stop you faster. The brakes should be able to overpower the engine and stop you from 90 mph, but looks like the Prius has crappy brakes.
The vast majority of the Prius' braking ability comes from regen braking. This regen braking is done by turning the electric motor. The dinner plate sized brake rotors would struggle to stop an ATV on their own, they're really only there for a formality. If the ECU glitched and caused both the gasoline AND electric motors to kick in full blast, the Prius has next to no brakes. IT's perfectly concievable that the woefully undersized hydraulic brakes would be unable to cope with the extra torque generated by the electric motor.

That motor isn't exactly weak, you know.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tainok View Post
Not really. 90 is not all that fast, people do that all the time on the windy interstates/highways in New York, I've gone well over, and it's not difficult to control the car at all.
I've gone 90 a few times. Kinda scary in my old truck with it's worn front end(It was wobbling and weaving on it's own ), but in my mom's minivan with healthy steering it's just a one finger affair.

Quote:
Only issue would be is if there was a LOT of traffic. But if he was anywhere near 90 to begin with, it's safe to assume there wasn't.
There was some, the article said it stuck when he pulled out to pass a car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteCrane View Post
Car and Driver ran tests. Al he had to do was shift to neutral, or turn the key shutting his car off. In any event, the brakes can always, always overpower an open throttle vehicle... especially a Prium with its wopping 120 horsepower or so.
The electric motor doubles the power output, and it's concievable that the glitching ECU would also put full power to that as well as the gasoline engine.
Quote:
The driver was a dumb ass.
Yeah, just like the CHP officer that brought this whole affair to light.
Quote:
Toyota has adamantly claimed its not an electronics problem. I trust them, because if they dont fix these cars more ppl will die and they'll get sued again. Why would they lie? The recall doesnt address electronics.
It's a glitch in the ECU. There's no two ways around it unless you wear Toyota brand blinders. Cars that have been repaired are still running away, the Prius has had issues with it's regenerative brakes not working for some time now, and then we get this report of a Prius running away. Mind you, the Prius uses a gas pedal not assembled at the plant the cars affected in the recall got theirs from, and it's not a floor mat because it would have dislosged when the driver tried to manaully lift the pedal. It's 100% an ECU glitch and you know it.

As for why Toyota would lie...look at what Toyota stands to lose. Toyota's presence in this country at all is because they made reliable, fuel-sipping cars. That's the entire reason they're here to begin with. They have then lost the 'reliable' part. Their reputation as the most reliable automaker in America is at stake here, and they'll do anything they can to keep that rep. Even if it means lying about ECU glitches. Not to mention how expensive it will be to fix all those ECU's. LEt's say each ECU costs 1,000 bucks to replace with a modded unit. Then, we figure 7 million cars will recieve this ECU, for free as far as the driver is concerned. Toyota will be eating a 7 billion dollar hit if they had to replace each ECU. Now, if we figure each ECU only costs 100 dollars to reflash, it's much cheaper, but it's still 70,000,000 dollars. They stand to lose a fortune.

They have PLENTY of incentive to lie their way out of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kremtok View Post
I just don't see how this is possible. With no hydraulic pressure, you can push as hard as you want and it still won't create flow in the braking system. There's no mechanical link from the pedal to the caliper. Maybe there's something that I'm not considering here...
You seem to have no idea how brakes work.

Hydraulic pressure in the brakes is generated by you pushing on the pedal. Cars before about 1975 or so had power brakes as an option, and trucks as new as 1983 could have been purchased with manual brakes. Manual brakes are normal hydraulic brakes that never had a power brake booster to begin with. Read and learn.

Power steering is similar, in that the actual steering happens because you turn the wheel. The power assist only makes it easier to do that, it does not in any way steer for you. There used to be a day not too long ago where cars that had disc front brakes were high end, power brakes weren't even an option on semi trucks and people knew what the hell they were doing because the lap belt wasn't going to save their ass if they screwed up.

When you understand how brakes work, come back and try again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirmie View Post
Manuals are NOT more efficient than automatic transmissions. Well, at least not in the last 20 years. The only time you see better MPG on manuals lately is because they have entirely different gearing from the automatics. Seriously, most people who compare the two are doing the idiotic comparison of a 4-speed auto versus a 5-speed or even a 6-speed manual. Think of it like each gear is a fan that is used up to a certain RPM then switched to a bigger one that does the same or more CFM's at a lower RPM. The only difference is whether you switch it to the next fan by flipping a switch (manual) or if a program does it for you (automatic).
You lose quite a bit of power and MPG in the torque converter. ANY automatic using a torque converter will get 1-3 less city MPG than a manual with identical gearing and speed count. This is simply because the engine has to rev another 300-500RPM to get the car to do anything. The automatic also has a fluid pump and hydraulic circuits in it, which sap a few HP, and they tend to get much hotter than manuals. Where do you think the heat comes from, Uranus?

Manuals are more efficient at transmitting the power than automatics, end of story.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirmie View Post
Fail post. Lets go through this systemically.

1. You can use the engine to slow down the car if your brakes crap out by shifting down.

Really! OMG no way! So can my 4-speed automatic.
Except for that part where your ECU decide it might rev the engine too high for fuel economy and says no to the downshift. Not to mention how your RPM drops to near idle once it goes down to about 1700 or so, due to how the torque converter works.

Quote:
2. You can control your torque directly for icy, muddy situations.

Hunh? You don't say. That sounds an awful lot like traction control. Wonder what happens if you have traction control and a limited slip differential. I bet that changes the amount of torque you get from the engine along with the balance to each drive wheel in case one tire is spinning faster than the other. Good thing my car has both.
Nice, you're asking the car to drive itself. What next, auto parking?

Quote:
3. You can choose to change gear at lower revs to save petrol or you can choose to change gear at higher revs if you want to go all out.

Crap! I wish my factory default computer measured the amount of throttle I was using and adjusted my air/fuel ratio and shift points accordingly. Oh wait, it did. I only say did because I have changed the shift points higher due to some mods I have on my car.
Yup, and having the ECU unlock the torque converter and kick down three gears because you gave it 3/4 throttle to climb a hill is efficient. Riiiiggghhhttt...

Quote:
I can put my car in 2nd, 3rd, or 4th gear as I please at 80 MPH
You can select them. They won't actually engage if any one of a myriad of computers decides against it, tho.

Quote:
and I can modify the rev limiter (which manuals don't have)
Uhhh, dude. Manuals have had rev limiters since 1996 or so. My 1996 Nissan 200SX had one, my friend's ODB-II 1995 Mustang has one, the 2003 Ranger my mom used to own had one, my friend's 08 Fusion has one. Hell even my '85 F150 has one, albiet not an electronic one.

No rev limiter on manual. Brilliant!

[/quote]I think my automatic has just about the same amount of control as a manual.[/quote]

You do not. That thing will go into whatever gear it wants to no matter what you say to the contrary. IF the ECU wants it to be in third gear, it will go into third gear. If the ECU wants to lock the TC, it will lock the TC. You have no control over your automatic short telling it forward or backward. You merely suggest to it that you want to go into a certain gear, it will comply with that suggestion only if it thinks certain criteria are met.

Quote:
That could be. It also probably had a lot to do with marketing. From what I hear (never bothered to confirm this) the European models tend to have less "distraction" items like cup holders. I think that was in a discovery channel thing about the old Mini's though. That and the ignorance factor where people who haven't driven a manual before think it will be hard.
Americans can't drive because A: They're pampered with automatics and a bajiliion driver's AIDS that do the driving for them and B: Noone teaches them. I got lucky, my dad's a good driver(He must be, he hasn't wrecked a car for 25 years or more, and 3 or 4 of those years have been in a semi truck) and taught me the same way. Every single one of my friends have commented to me about my 'safe' driving, even when I'm going quite a bit faster than I should be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nismo_usaf View Post
brakes arnt meant to work doing 90 and you slamming on them.
Brakes should be able to stop the car at any speed that car can achieve, against a WOT engine. Not being able to do so is a half-baked design mistake.

Quote:
and also the computer is defected, its supposed to reconginze the problem and cut the acceleration and allow brakes to function properly, but since its bugged out it doesn't decide on gas or break in this emergency and is stuck in a neutral position.
This is called a Brake Override. Toyotas do NOT have such a feature, so they tend to run off.


You can see one in action on a BMW in this video:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Duesco View Post
Well, normal car brakes. The 19"/15" carbo-ceramic Brembo battleship stoppers on the Enzo Ferrari could probably handle it. XD
lol those things could stop anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AzO View Post
You'd be surprised, many just read the title.



Like ljason8eg said previously, but I guess no one bothers to click on links anymore. Here's a picture so you can visualize what we are talking about when we say "normal" cars are able to brake from 90mph.



Therefore I find it very fishy why the Prius could not brake properly as braking is a fundamental feature no automobile manufacturer should get wrong.
Lol @ Roush Mustang taking so long to stop at WOT.

As far as the Prius, it's a special little harbinger of doom. The hydraulic brakes on it are absolutely pathetic. I wouldn't trust 'em on an ATV to be honest. The vast majority of that car's braking is done regeneratively, by turning the electric motor with the wheels. When the ECU glitches and jams the throttle wide open, it is not at all inconcievable to think the ECU is also allowing the electric motor to pull as hard as it can in addition to the gasoline motor. Couple that with the dinner plate sized brake rotors and you have a runaway Prius with no way in hell to get it whoa'd down without breaking something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pings View Post
I'm a owner of a white 2008 Prius. I got mailed some paper explaining what was wrong with my model, and come to find out both recalls hand nothing to do with the my model. So when I read this guy's story I thought it was total BS. He couldn't even get the scam down right.
I've always wanted to ask this...do you know that your Prius is worse for the environment than a Hummer? Also, why exactly did you buy the single worse car on the road for the environment you could buy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SporkofdooM View Post
you can downshift by manually moving the lever from D to 1, 2, 3, whatever depending on your car.

Downshift when your throttle is stuck and you might have a little case of poof goes the engine though
Uhh, no. The automatic's computer will NOT downshift if it thinks it might damage the engine. Since the runaways are WOT anyways, this means it's already going to be in the absolute lowest gear the ECU thinks is safe for the engine, so you aren't going to do anything. Best to use neutral and let the rev limiter do it's thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antolen View Post
i think it is the driver, something sounds fishy there. He could do so many thing to stop but instead he called 911!? Someone is trying to bring toyota down.
61 years old, likely panicked. He did try several things, such as standing on the brakes as hard as he could and reaching down to manually free the accelerator. The car running away is not his fault, and actually he's one of the better drivers that have made Toyota news as of late. He didn't hit anything and didn't lose complete control of the car. A CHP officer was able to coax him to getting it stopped over loudspeaker.
Edited by TestECull - 3/9/10 at 5:54pm
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post #215 of 400
Edit: ^Wow TestECull... I've never seen someone quote that many people. Almost rep-worthy lmao

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mootsfox View Post
I love when my posts are picked and torn apart...

Auto gearboxes with a slushy connection will ALWAYS be less efficient, less powerful and slower than a direct, mechanical connection, period.

A F1 gearbox does not have a torque converter, it doesn't suffer from that problem. Of course a computer can switch gears faster than a human. That's common sense. But the transmission will still suck if it uses a torque converter.

The auto Camry vs the 5spd Camry will be slower, less responsive, less efficient and be even less fun to drive. Go look at the numbers, EPA mileage, etc. Prove me wrong.

Maybe I should have raged about torque converters instead of auto trannys
Haha yes you should have. I wasn't talking about automatic transmissions in general, just the bleeding edge of tech ones. There's a reason some auto's are called "Slush-boxes." More parasitic lost than a manual.

And that entire post wasn't direct towards you. Just that guy over-exaggerating a bit.

I personally suck at driving a manual-shift tranny, at least on a road coarse. I've driven an Audi with their DSG and it was a blast to drive. Definitely wasn't a typical automatic slushbox.
Edited by BizzareRide - 3/9/10 at 5:52pm
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post #216 of 400
So remember when the Woz said that his Prius experienced the same thing? He said that he thought it was a code problem in vehicle. I guess he was onto something.
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post #217 of 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mootsfox View Post
I love when my posts are picked and torn apart...

Auto gearboxes with a slushy connection will ALWAYS be less efficient, less powerful and slower than a direct, mechanical connection, period.

A F1 gearbox does not have a torque converter, it doesn't suffer from that problem. Of course a computer can switch gears faster than a human. That's common sense. But the transmission will still suck if it uses a torque converter.

The auto Camry vs the 5spd Camry will be slower, less responsive, less efficient and be even less fun to drive. Go look at the numbers, EPA mileage, etc. Prove me wrong.

Maybe I should have raged about torque converters instead of auto trannys
+1

Also, I'm pretty sure this manual vs auto talk is in regards to what an average person who owns a vehicle would drive. After all, my reply was to someone making the statement: "A good automatic is superior to any manual transmission".

Which definately isn't the case, unless a "good automatic", is an F1 car, a truck, or a car that costs more than most people could ever afford, in which case, you're arguement in the context of this thread is mooted since you're making the case that anything that isn't an F1 car, truck or $100k vehicle is not a good auto vehicle.

Trucks/Buses/F1 vehicles are obviously a different discussion.
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post #218 of 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by BizzareRide View Post
Edit: ^Wow TestECull... I've never seen someone quote that many people. Almost rep-worthy lmao
lol we had a member that used to be active that was famous for that. He was named the multi-quote king. HE goes by The Hundred Gunner.

I haven't seen him in ages, tho.

I know there's quite a few errors in my huge wall-o-text, but man I ain't gonna try to sift thrrough and find them

They're mostly BBcode and typoes.

Quote:
I personally suck at driving a manual-shift tranny, at least on a road coarse. I've driven an Audi with their DSG and it was a blast to drive. Definitely wasn't a typical automatic slushbox.
lol floppy-paddle gearbox. All the efficiency of a manual without any of the awesomeness of double clutching.

Great in F1/WRC cars, tho.
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post #219 of 400
gee how the heck does a non OCN related post get so large so quickly?
    
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post #220 of 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildcard36qs View Post
gee how the heck does a non OCN related post get so large so quickly?
I think this is what happens when everyone pretends they have any kind of life outside of ocn
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