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post #81 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by PickledStiff View Post


What makes you think we'd be without these things?
I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that all these services would be provided.

I also have absolutely no doubt in my mind that they would be provided at a dramatic cost via for-profit monopolies or that the safety standards or failure margins would be much worse than what we currently experience.

The free market does not resolve issues of public need very well. Private corporations are, by definition, profit-driven and place their interests ahead of their customers.

Take note of the fact that corruption of public services in the interest of private entities is one of the worst problems we face as a society.
post #82 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urufu_Shinjiro View Post
OK, who else is going to ensure the food supply is safe, who else is going to build the massive superhighways, who else is going to ensure a safe and plentiful water supply, who else is going to separate the safe medicines from the snake oil and poison? You tell me, would all these things be possible today, and at the quality level they are at without government involvement? These things could have been done privately eventually, but not as quickly as they have come about due to government regulation. Please don't tell me we'd have all these things through private enterprise, because we wouldn't, look at China, their regulation of food and materials safety is so lax as to be non-existent and time and time again greedy companies have killed people and endangered lives through cutting corners and ignoring public safety, lead painted toys, poisoned milk, it goes on and on...

Right, comparing a 3rd world country with no real wealth until recently to the US is a great comparison. Of course all these things would have been developed. If there isn't demand for it then why are we being threatened by force to pay for it? Clearly if it was so important and needed then people wouldn't have to be forced to pay for said service, they would be instead lining up to pay for it voluntarily. It's retarded to think otherwise. If there is widespread demand for them they will be developed.
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post #83 of 155
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Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that all these services would be provided.

I also have absolutely no doubt in my mind that they would be provided at a dramatic cost via for-profit monopolies or that the safety standards or failure margins would be much worse than what we currently experience.

The free market does not resolve issues of public need very well. Private corporations are, by definition, profit-driven and place their interests ahead of their customers.

Take note of the fact that corruption of public services in the interest of private entities is one of the worst problems we face as a society.

They already are provided at a dramatic cost, by a for profit monopoly. Except that there is no chance of competition if your only competitor is the government.

Corruption of public services is a result of government intervention into matters which should be kept private. If the government is giving away free money, everyone lines up for it regardless. If one company gets it and another doesn't there is an inherent advantage for the one company.
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post #84 of 155
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Originally Posted by PickledStiff View Post
Right, comparing a 3rd world country with no real wealth until recently to the US is a great comparison. Of course all these things would have been developed. If there isn't demand for it then why are we being threatened by force to pay for it? Clearly if it was so important and needed then people wouldn't have to be forced to pay for said service, they would be instead lining up to pay for it voluntarily. It's retarded to think otherwise. If there is widespread demand for them they will be developed.
Fire stations used to be privatized. Now they aren't. People didn't like it.
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post #85 of 155
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Originally Posted by PickledStiff View Post
Right, comparing a 3rd world country with no real wealth until recently to the US is a great comparison. Of course all these things would have been developed. If there isn't demand for it then why are we being threatened by force to pay for it? Clearly if it was so important and needed then people wouldn't have to be forced to pay for said service, they would be instead lining up to pay for it voluntarily. It's retarded to think otherwise. If there is widespread demand for them they will be developed.

You're wrong. America was in the same boat as China 100 years ago. A country can not be wealthy until it has a clear and viable stable government that is capable of subsidizing public goods. You can't have a wealthy country with a massive infrastructure. Massive infrastructures can NOT be built solely through private funds. It's not possible.

You show me one country on this planet that is wealthy, and doesn't have a government to regulate, subsidize and provide public goods for it's people. It's not possible. In fact why don't you name some massive infrastructures built in America without government subsides.

Railroads, Roads, Power, Telecommunications, all of these were made possible BY government intervention. Without the government they don't exist. I would also like to point out that all of those infrastructures are run by publicly traded companies, and nearly all of those companies tried to set up monopolies, before government stepped in to stop it.

IF there is a wide spread demand for something, then it will be built? Really by who? You think any business in this world is going to commit hundreds of billions of dollars into some "gamble" because people want it now? No, no business will do it unless they get big concessions from government.
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post #86 of 155
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Originally Posted by Cesaro Summability View Post
You're wrong. America was in the same boat as China 100 years ago. A country can not be wealthy until it has a clear and viable stable government that is capable of subsidizing public goods. You can't have a wealthy country with a massive infrastructure. Massive infrastructures can NOT be built solely through private funds. It's not possible.

You show me one country on this planet that is wealthy, and doesn't have a government to regulate, subsidize and provide public goods for it's people. It's not possible. In fact why don't you name some massive infrastructures built in America without government subsides.

Railroads, Roads, Power, Telecommunications, all of these were made possible BY government intervention. Without the government they don't exist. I would also like to point out that all of those infrastructures are run by publicly traded companies, and nearly all of those companies tried to set up monopolies, before government stepped in to stop it.

IF there is a wide spread demand for something, then it will be built? Really by who? You think any business in this world is going to commit hundreds of billions of dollars into some "gamble" because people want it now? No, no business will do it unless they get big concessions from government.

If this made any sense then North Korea and Cuba would be the pinnacle of achievement. Yes, plenty of companies will 'gamble' if the payoff is worth the roll of the dice, that's the basis of business. Every entrepreneur takes the gamble, albeit an educated one.
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post #87 of 155
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Originally Posted by MrDeodorant View Post
Fire stations used to be privatized. Now they aren't. People didn't like it.
Oh?

Quote:

For example, the Elk Grove district in rural Illinois put together a private fire service when they faced an imminent loss of protection by a nearby municipal fire department. They found that the private company was able to provide the service far cheaper than contracting with another local government. The private provider explains why:

“Our first-year contract was $300,000, and we were providing the same level of service the consultant said would cost $1 million,†Jensen said. “We continue to provide service as good as that of our municipal neighbors, but because we are private, we can operate more efficiently. We save 30 to 40 percent over what a similar municipal department would cost to operate.â€
The savings come mainly in personnel. The fire district has 14 full-time firefighters and 28 paid-on-call firefighters, all of whom are privately employed. None is a union member.
“We don’t pay the insane salaries that our municipal neighbors pay,†Jensen said. “Our benefits are more in line with traditional industry. We are non-union, which gives us a lot more flexibility in dealing with our employees. Salaries and benefits are the big savings, but we [also] have a shop where we can rebuild and refurbish fire apparatus for our own use.
“We save money in purchasing almost anything a fire department would use, just by shopping around. We’re very cost-conscious. We watch every penny we spend,†Jensen added.

Many more cities would probably follow this road if it were not for the strong union opposition. Privatizing fire departments is not a high priority for many people, because the cost of public fire service is not a large portion of each year’s taxes paid. However, those who have studied it have found that—just as Elk Grove saved through private sector provision—private fire services are cheaper and more efficient.

Another gross misunderstanding promoted by this group is that a private provider will mean that the poor will go unprotected. However, their example of private fire departments once again refutes their own assertion. There are many ways to ensure that all residents in an area, poor and rich alike, can be protected by some fire service, without public provision and without mandates. For example, the report linked above describes how it was done in Chatham County, Georgia.

[P]rospective customers are sent a mailing that informs them they are not protected against fire damage—nor are their homes, property and belongings. They are told that the Southside Fire Department can provide them with the protection that they need—and at no net cost to them. In fact, they are told, by subscribing to SSFD for fire protection,
they will actually save money, because the savings on insurance that they will realize from doing so will far outweigh the company’s charge for service. The subscription rate varies depending on the value of the house.

Just as property taxes vary depending upon the value of the property, the fire service rates vary depending upon the value—except the total cost of the fire service subscription will be saved in homeowners or renters insurance. Mortgage brokers and landlords both tend to require these insurances, so this will be a savings for anyone renting or owning a home—in other words, anyone for whom the fire service would be useful.
http://blog.heritage.org/2009/08/26/...nes-obamacare/
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post #88 of 155
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The savings come mainly in personnel. The fire district has 14 full-time firefighters and 28 paid-on-call firefighters, all of whom are privately employed. None is a union member.
“We don’t pay the insane salaries that our municipal neighbors pay,â€
The failure here is the union, not the government.
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post #89 of 155
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Originally Posted by MrDeodorant View Post
The failure here is the union, not the government.
Right, so why is it that a private enterprise can use non unionized labor, but the government chooses to use the union, in turn raising taxes to fund the union's demands. The gov't has no incentive to provide the service efficiently, they will just raise taxes to pay for any increase in cost, or print more money, or borrow more, or a combination of the 3.
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post #90 of 155
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Originally Posted by PickledStiff View Post
If this made any sense then North Korea and Cuba would be the pinnacle of achievement. Yes, plenty of companies will 'gamble' if the payoff is worth the roll of the dice, that's the basis of business. Every entrepreneur takes the gamble, albeit an educated one.
ROFL! WHAT?! What person in their right mind would call North Korea, or Cuba a STABLE government? Stop confusing our government with Totalitarianism.


Why don't you give me some examples of where a business made a massive investment into infrastructure with no government help.
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