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Offical AMD Athlon II X3 Owners Club - Page 41

post #401 of 583
Quote:
just got a athlon II x3 440 so as soon as I get my motherboard I'll officialy be part of the club too ! by the way what do you guys think of this motherboard to go with it?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...scrollFullInfo

The VRM on it is only 4+1, although it's 8pin. This means you reallly won't be able to overvolt on it safely, unless you get aftermarket MOSFET heatsink, or put chipset heatsinks on it. Even then, it's questionable.

Check out this thread:
http://www.overclock.net/amd-cpus/943109-why-vrms-big-issue-why-usually.html
and this thread:
http://www.overclock.net/amd-motherboards/946407-amd-motherboard-power-phase-list.html

http://www.overclock.net/amd-cpus/794250-help-msi-870-g45-unlocking-720be-3.html#post11272679

Apparently, it's not a good board. It seems MSI boards aren't very good to overvolt on due to VRM issues. Especially at the $100 price tag, it's a pretty bad board. You can get the same board I got with a combo deal (450+biostar a770e3 is cheaper than lower AMDs) which is basically a little better in quality (althou less VRM modules, so its questionable if its better) or you should get a 8+1 w/8pin CPU psu socket for about the same price.

If you plan to overvolt at all, or unlock, I would recommend you get a better board, or get the same board I got for way cheaper and put aftermarket heatsinks on it. Unlocking increases the TDP by a lot. There's also a few threads saying the board you picked out blew out even without overvolting, but currently no threads on my motherboard blowing out (could just be because no one has it because the newegg combo deal on it is fairly new).

In short, it's A) too expensive for the bad VRM or B)better VRMs on lower priced mobos. You should PM xd_1771, and search your motherboard + "overclock.net vrm" or "overclock.net 'Motherboard' mosfet".
Quote:
And then they were finding that the CPU could go faster bringing the NB back down a bit.

Could you go more in-depth to this or point me to threads about this (or how to search it)? I don't think the CPU_NB is a limiting factor in CPU overclock, especially at below 4ghz right? I'm talking out of my ass here, but there's no reason you couldn't overclock both and simply be limited by the CPU only for the CPu speed and the NB because of the NB speed. You just have to be smart with how you tinker with the FSB. I say just raise the FSB very high, and have everything below stock multis, that way you have more control over each individual component.
Quote:
I thought some Athlon IIs were Deneb cores with locked cache and maybe a locked core. Or is this only for the quads?

Again, talking out of my ass, but seeing the results that some peopel are able to unlock L3 cache on the lower and older model Athlon II X3's (ie 400-430ish) while no one really being able to unlock L3 cache on the 450 (maybe 430-450) I think that some of the older ones are Denebs and some of the newer 400 series Athlon II's are simply Propus.

I know my Athlon II 450 is a Propus because I can't get any l3 cache at all - its not a matter of stability, it just doesn't show up. The downside is that the 450 has no L3 cache to unlock, but the plus side is that they are (at least the newer revisions, not sure if its all revisions of the chip) all just disabled Propus dies, meaning unlocking the 4th core is guaranteed.

I would't be surprised if some revisions were Denebs, and newer revisions are Propus. This is probably why the 450 doesn't overclock too well, only 300-400mhz max possible even with huge overvolts, but unlocks easily. The problem of searching on the internet is that many people say they are unable to unlock the 4th core, but don't realize you *need* to lower the HT Link Speed (at stock clocks) to 1.6ghz. The Rebelshaven guide to unlocking x3's talks about this, but I think most 450 owners are unaware of this, so you can't really get an accurate feel if people are simply unable to unlock their 450's, or they are just unaware of how to do it.

I'm able to get much higher than 1.6ghz HT Link Speed when I overclock/raise FSB, but I think it's a multiplier issue. I have to keep my Bios at 1.6ghz for it, which essentially translate to a 8x multiplier (not sure if my Bios/mobo is doing a workaround of locked multipliers or is just trying to make it easier for people by displaying a speed vs multiplier, as if I change the speed to 1.6ghz, it's only 1.6ghz at 200 stock fsb, it goes up as x8 when FSB increases). I'm using AMI Bios with Biostar a770e3 (stock, updated).

Anyways the 450, despite not being the greatest overclocker, is the best price deal now (not to mention best combo deals on newegg) and the fastest (just buying only the CPU, I think it's only $2 more than the 445, essentially $2 for 100mhz). So overclocking isn't a big deal considering lower cores which may overclock better start at a lower frequency. I have seen youtube vids of 4ghz+ on some athlon 400's, but they usually struggled with unlocking issues and overclocking has it's own issues anyways. Point being, is that you really shouldnt need an aftermarket HSF on an Athlon ii 450 even if you plan to OC as you won't get good gains from higher voltages anyways (can't even get 100mhz from .02 difference after 3.5, and 3.5 is the bleeding edge for me, I haven't done a full 24 hour p95 test, only 8 hours, it was stable, but I just crashed on a wakeup from idle though that could be windows or anything).
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post #402 of 583
Taking a further look at your motherboard:

The mosfets will run hotter because the transistors have 3 legs with the center one cut (look at the tiny flat chips and how many 'legs' they have, you can see it has 3 with the middle cut, as opposed to 4 full legs. this isn't as good). You definately need a heatsink on these if you plan to get this board.

Read this article too:
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/Everything-You-Need-to-Know-About-The-Motherboard-Voltage-Regulator-Circuit/616/3

apparently it seems MSI just don't really hold up with overclocking well, they fry a lot. It seems the board you chose is particularly suspectible to this. Just get the Biostar I chose for half the price for better quality or simply a better motherboard. Even the Biostar I have is only 3 leg, so I'm in the process of cutting up my old stock heatsink and using the pieces as heatsinks for the chipsets. Biostar seem to be known for better quality VRM's but I imagine I'm pushing the safety margins, as it's rated for 125w but I'm doing 140w with OC and unlock.
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post #403 of 583
Considering that my mobo only has 1 GHz HTT, that would explain why I unlocked with no hiccups. tongue.gif
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post #404 of 583
Oh, and if you're gonna get a 4+1 mobo, please don't get an MSI. VRMs on MSI = bad bad bad.
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post #405 of 583
3 mosfets are also worse than 2 - same as my mobo, but yours is twice the price. All boards use 3 chipsets mosfets per phase(the tall round things) but the ones that 'skimp' will have 3 mosfets per phase, because it means instead of using 2 mosfet chipset transistors (the small flat chips with 3/4 legs), they use 3 and use an extra capacitor for the mosfet circuitry.

3 Mosfet chips are worse than 2 mosfet chips, which both our boards have but yours is twice the price. See, every board uses 2 mosfet chips for power modulation, and those 2 chips are modulated by something. On higher quality boards, they will use a mosfet driver chip, a chip that looks similar but has 8 tiny legs, 4 on both sides. On lower quality boards like ours, there is no mosfet driver but instead simply an extra mosfet chip. So a high quality board should have 2 mosfets, and then a 3rd chip, whereas lower quality has 3 identical mosfets.

Your board also uses solid capacitors, just like mine, which is better than electrolytic capacitors. Which is better. Solid is, well, solid, and electrolytic are kind of open at the top and have those 3/4 way indentions (kind of like for a screwdriver, but clearly not).

That MSI board may be a bit better actually because unlike mine, which has a mix of electrolytic capacitors in some places, yours is 100% solid capacitors. It also has 4+1 whereas mine is 3+1. My board also uses OST electrolytic capacitors - Japanese electrolytic capacitors are the best kind to have, but unfortunately OST is Taiwanese (sometimes sold rebranded as Japanese which is sneaky). They are rated fairly high at 105*c though, so doesn't necessarily mean they are bad, just means they aren't guaranteed good like japanese capacitors. From what I read they seem to be medium quality, but that's just a general opinion I've found on google. But at least they aren't used on the power phase.

Both our boards have ferrite chokes. Good (vs iron).

All motherboards, regardless of 3 or 2 mosfets on them, will have at least a single driver chip. My board, while it doesnt use them for mosfet regulation, at least has that one that's used for complete CPU phase control. The exception, is very low quality boards that use a capacitor instead. Both our boards at least have this 1 8-legged chipset (usually located 'below' the phases).

Complicated! Just try to get solid capacitors on your motherboard and more phases - each phase operates at an equal but shared load, so the more phases, the lower the burden each phase has to carry. Also, motherboard power is done by PWM (Pulse Width Modulation), something you may be familiar with in PWM fans. PWM works not by adjusting the voltage, but simply having a set voltage (12v, from the 12v rail on the PSU) and either switching on and off so an exact amount of electricity is given within a short time frame (think electricity supplied in binary). The relevance of this information is that with less phases (aka channels), the more each/all phase is 'on', meaning much more heat.

Also, VRM's and phases are susceptible to heat runaway due to the PWM nature. This means that they don't really overheat because of linear increases, it means that at a certain point the heat suddenly just starts building up exponentially, meaning while you started your prime95 stress test, and noticed everything was dandy an hour in, when you come back from work 8 hours later, your motherboard was blown. Essentially heat runaway is the susceptibility of a Integrated circuit to suddenly overheat because it was unable to cool itself faster than heat got added on, and added on, and added on, and... boom!

If you go for electrolytic capacitors, there are ways to ID them online to see if they are japanese, or of questionable (chinese) quality. If you are going for price, well, just try to get the best you can afford IF you plan on overclocking or unlocking. If you don't plan to unlock or overclock, don't worry about it, all market motherboards are generally pretty good. If you plan to overclock, overvolt, or unlock at all, you should take all this into consideration.

edit: and it generally seems MSI VRM's are pretty bad quality, especially anecdotally.
Edited by Belial - 3/8/11 at 2:55pm
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Phillips FW-C250 2 Speaker Set w/3 CD Changer JBL Sub 6 Subwoofer NZXT Sleeved LED Strip 1m Blue NZXT Sentry 2 Fan Controller 
Other
Colonial Blue Paracord Sleeving 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Phenom ii X4 955C2, $31, 5 broken pins, works! ... Biostar A770e3 6.3 Red&Black MSI GTX 460 768mb Twin Frozr II 2 x 2GB Kingston HyperX 1333 OC to 1348CL7@1.65v 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Intel X25-M G2 80GB SSD NH-D14 SE2011 6 x Case Fans (4 x YL-M, NZXT case fan, CM Hype... Jerryrigged Chipset-Northbridge 80mm HSF 
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Jerryrigged VRM Heatsink (sawed off stock AM2 h... Hax'd W7 Ultimate 64bit Sanyo DP19640 19"1360x768 Ducky Cherry Browns 10keyless 
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post #406 of 583
Mind if I join?
My rig
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Athlon II X3 450 3.2 Ghz Asus M4A77TD PNY GTS 450 XLR8 4 Gigs Gskill 1600 
Hard DriveOptical DriveOSMonitor
Sata 500gb 20x DVD+rw Windows 7 ultimate HP w1907 1400x900, Samsung 32" HD LCD TV 1360x768 
PowerCaseMouse
Cooler master elite 460 (420 watt) HEC Blitz Black Steel Edition Engage gaming series 
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My rig
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Athlon II X3 450 3.2 Ghz Asus M4A77TD PNY GTS 450 XLR8 4 Gigs Gskill 1600 
Hard DriveOptical DriveOSMonitor
Sata 500gb 20x DVD+rw Windows 7 ultimate HP w1907 1400x900, Samsung 32" HD LCD TV 1360x768 
PowerCaseMouse
Cooler master elite 460 (420 watt) HEC Blitz Black Steel Edition Engage gaming series 
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post #407 of 583
^welcome!

Question, what kind of CPU-NB are you guys getting on the x3 450 unlocked to x4? And what kind of HT link frequency... and RAM speed lol. When I'm at stock FSB/clock I have to go 1.6ghz HT Link speed or less or else it wont unlock, but I noticed when I increased my FSB i could go past it.
Build In Progress
(17 items)
 
   
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Haswell i7-4770K 4.8GHz@1.452v/1.97vRIN Gigabyte Z87X-UD3H Older Gigabyte 7950 (H60 Mod) 2x4GB Gskill 2400CL11 Hynix CFRs 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Samsung 830 128gb Corsair H110 w/4x 140mm Yate Loon High Blues W7 x64 Ultimate Yarrgh Matey Dell U2312HM Matte IPS 1080p 
MonitorMonitorKeyboardPower
Sanyo DP19640 18.5" 768p KDS Rad-7xp 1024p CM Storm Quickfire Rapids Brown Rosewill Capstone 750 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Bitfenix Shinobi Modded CM Storm Spawn Steelseries Diablo 3 2 set CD Speaker + Big Sub 
Other
Bitfenix Recon Fan Controller Moded 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Delidded i7-3770K 5GHz@1.499 Gigabyte Z77X-UD5H 1.1 Sapphire Dual-X 7950 3L Boost 4x2GB Mushkin Ridgeback 2200mhz 8/11/8/27 1.75v... 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Intel X25-M 80GB SSD NH-D14 SE2011 Noctua 120/140/140 Fans 3 x Yate Loon Mediums (Petras) 2 x NZXT Havik 140mm Fans 
OSMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Hax'd W7 Ultimate 64-bit Sanyo DP19640 19'' KDS Radius Rad-7xp 17'' Ducky 1087 MX Brown 10keyless 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Rosewill Capstone 550w Modular NZXT Source 210 w/Modded Window Razer Deathadder 3.5G Steelseries Blizzcon D3 
AudioAudioOtherOther
Phillips FW-C250 2 Speaker Set w/3 CD Changer JBL Sub 6 Subwoofer NZXT Sleeved LED Strip 1m Blue NZXT Sentry 2 Fan Controller 
Other
Colonial Blue Paracord Sleeving 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Phenom ii X4 955C2, $31, 5 broken pins, works! ... Biostar A770e3 6.3 Red&Black MSI GTX 460 768mb Twin Frozr II 2 x 2GB Kingston HyperX 1333 OC to 1348CL7@1.65v 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Intel X25-M G2 80GB SSD NH-D14 SE2011 6 x Case Fans (4 x YL-M, NZXT case fan, CM Hype... Jerryrigged Chipset-Northbridge 80mm HSF 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Jerryrigged VRM Heatsink (sawed off stock AM2 h... Hax'd W7 Ultimate 64bit Sanyo DP19640 19"1360x768 Ducky Cherry Browns 10keyless 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Antec Earthwatts 430D NZXT Gamma Steelseries Kinzu Optical Steelseries Blizzcon Diablo 3 
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Build In Progress
(17 items)
 
   
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Haswell i7-4770K 4.8GHz@1.452v/1.97vRIN Gigabyte Z87X-UD3H Older Gigabyte 7950 (H60 Mod) 2x4GB Gskill 2400CL11 Hynix CFRs 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Samsung 830 128gb Corsair H110 w/4x 140mm Yate Loon High Blues W7 x64 Ultimate Yarrgh Matey Dell U2312HM Matte IPS 1080p 
MonitorMonitorKeyboardPower
Sanyo DP19640 18.5" 768p KDS Rad-7xp 1024p CM Storm Quickfire Rapids Brown Rosewill Capstone 750 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Bitfenix Shinobi Modded CM Storm Spawn Steelseries Diablo 3 2 set CD Speaker + Big Sub 
Other
Bitfenix Recon Fan Controller Moded 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Delidded i7-3770K 5GHz@1.499 Gigabyte Z77X-UD5H 1.1 Sapphire Dual-X 7950 3L Boost 4x2GB Mushkin Ridgeback 2200mhz 8/11/8/27 1.75v... 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Intel X25-M 80GB SSD NH-D14 SE2011 Noctua 120/140/140 Fans 3 x Yate Loon Mediums (Petras) 2 x NZXT Havik 140mm Fans 
OSMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Hax'd W7 Ultimate 64-bit Sanyo DP19640 19'' KDS Radius Rad-7xp 17'' Ducky 1087 MX Brown 10keyless 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Rosewill Capstone 550w Modular NZXT Source 210 w/Modded Window Razer Deathadder 3.5G Steelseries Blizzcon D3 
AudioAudioOtherOther
Phillips FW-C250 2 Speaker Set w/3 CD Changer JBL Sub 6 Subwoofer NZXT Sleeved LED Strip 1m Blue NZXT Sentry 2 Fan Controller 
Other
Colonial Blue Paracord Sleeving 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Phenom ii X4 955C2, $31, 5 broken pins, works! ... Biostar A770e3 6.3 Red&Black MSI GTX 460 768mb Twin Frozr II 2 x 2GB Kingston HyperX 1333 OC to 1348CL7@1.65v 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Intel X25-M G2 80GB SSD NH-D14 SE2011 6 x Case Fans (4 x YL-M, NZXT case fan, CM Hype... Jerryrigged Chipset-Northbridge 80mm HSF 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Jerryrigged VRM Heatsink (sawed off stock AM2 h... Hax'd W7 Ultimate 64bit Sanyo DP19640 19"1360x768 Ducky Cherry Browns 10keyless 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Antec Earthwatts 430D NZXT Gamma Steelseries Kinzu Optical Steelseries Blizzcon Diablo 3 
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post #408 of 583
A quality 4+1 with proper 2 transistor/driver design, low RDS (on) preferably, and proper cooling would be fine for unlocks with moderate voltage (i.e. don't go pushing >1.5V). But something such as MSI or unheatsinked or cheap 3-transistor design.... bad idea
post #409 of 583
74643425.png

Just doing a first run, not stable. Will try some more after I get some food smile.gif

Couldn't unlock the fourth core.
duck!
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Athlon II X3 450 @ 4.2GHz 1.48v ASUS M4A79XTD EVO Sapphire HD 6950 1GB + Powercolor HD 5770 G.SKILL Ripjaws 2x2GB DDR3 
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Corsair F60 SSD + 2x Seagate 7200.12 1TB LG 22" W2242TQ 1680x1050 Seasonic S12D 750W Antec 300 
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duck!
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Athlon II X3 450 @ 4.2GHz 1.48v ASUS M4A79XTD EVO Sapphire HD 6950 1GB + Powercolor HD 5770 G.SKILL Ripjaws 2x2GB DDR3 
Hard DriveMonitorPowerCase
Corsair F60 SSD + 2x Seagate 7200.12 1TB LG 22" W2242TQ 1680x1050 Seasonic S12D 750W Antec 300 
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post #410 of 583
Belial what is the guide you were talking about? Have a link? I managed to boot a few times as a B5x (something) Phenom II with four cores, but couldn't get past POST.
duck!
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Athlon II X3 450 @ 4.2GHz 1.48v ASUS M4A79XTD EVO Sapphire HD 6950 1GB + Powercolor HD 5770 G.SKILL Ripjaws 2x2GB DDR3 
Hard DriveMonitorPowerCase
Corsair F60 SSD + 2x Seagate 7200.12 1TB LG 22" W2242TQ 1680x1050 Seasonic S12D 750W Antec 300 
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duck!
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Athlon II X3 450 @ 4.2GHz 1.48v ASUS M4A79XTD EVO Sapphire HD 6950 1GB + Powercolor HD 5770 G.SKILL Ripjaws 2x2GB DDR3 
Hard DriveMonitorPowerCase
Corsair F60 SSD + 2x Seagate 7200.12 1TB LG 22" W2242TQ 1680x1050 Seasonic S12D 750W Antec 300 
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