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Quote:
Originally Posted by Versa View Post

You don't need server class hardware/ECC even in ZFS for home use. I'm pretty sure if you mention non-ECC memory on FreeNAS forums and they will lynch you kookoo.gif
Even have my plex server running on my rig below.

You should take a look at their forums to see what they say. They stress over and over again that ECC is an absolute must due to ZFS and Raid5/6 becoming irretrievably corrupted during repair after even a single bad bit has been written to the disk.

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post #3682 of 4324
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmp459 View Post

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiro_uspsss;11804932 
Originally Posted by tiro_uspsss;11804932 

I find it odd that so many 'servers' that ppl run dont have ECC ram :shrug:


Most home servers are really just serving up files and doing menial hosting tasks... and it is far cheaper to just use older desktop components than going out of the way to get a server board and ecc ram.


If we were talking a 24/7 production environment w/ ram intensive applications or databases... that would be a different story.


For the most part even when using the server as a DC and letting it handle dhcp/dns for my network, filesharing, and backups, its barely going through the paces... not really too many places for memory errors.


Also ive been running this hardware for years and am very confident on what is 100% stable in terms of memory timings/voltages. Ive had my server board and ram paired together since like 2008.
I know this isn't the right place to ask but is the above still valid? I created a thread about my intentions of building a file/media server and decided on getting a Xeon, 16GB ECC RAM and a board to go with it, which is basically what people recommend on the Freenas forums. I've seen threads in which people were almost lynched for stating they were going to use something other than server class hardware yet from what I've seen Kyadk uses normal consumer hardware (8320, non-ECC RAM and a 'gaming' board) as server.

So, now I'm wondering whether someone who is just going to use his server as film, music and photo server really needs to use server class hardware or whether consumer level equipment also will suffice.

Normal ECC is 9-bit, the 9th being on if the number of bits in the other 8 is even or odd (one of the two, can't remember which), and it then compares those two vaules. If you get a "10011100", and the 9th bit is "1", then the CPU knows it failed at data integrity. This kind of ECC actually does work in my 990FXA-UD5 and 970A-UD3 if I cared to do so. I'm fairly certain it will work in my X99-Deluxe when it moves to server duty. UnBuffered ECC is fairly common, not too expensive, and is socket compatable with normal RAM.

The big boy expensive RAM is Buffered ECC, and those chips can pack 64GB on a DIMM. They are also incredibly expensive, no matter how old.

I run the risk of data integrity by choosing to not run ECC, but my servers are almost 100% handmedown parts from my main rig. There is no 24/7 mission critical thing on my servers that I do not have a redundant copy of on the other server, including DHCP/DNS/AD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Versa View Post

You don't need server class hardware/ECC even in ZFS for home use. I'm pretty sure if you mention non-ECC memory on FreeNAS forums and they will lynch you kookoo.gif

Even have my plex server running on my rig below.
You should take a look at their forums to see what they say. They stress over and over again that ECC is an absolute must due to ZFS and Raid5/6 becoming irretrievably corrupted during repair after even a single bad bit has been written to the disk.

Not to sound like a broken record, but yet another reason I use RAID cards and not software RAID. It isn't a viable solution for FreeNAS, but if my card dies I just plug the drives into another one. If data is written wrong to a drive, I take it out, wipe it, put it back in, and rebuild the array. Not that it has happened yet.
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post #3683 of 4324

Found a lot of really cheap registered/buffered ECC RAM at less than 15 USD but need Opteron or Xeons for them. Non-registered/buffered RAM is more expensive but can still be found for around the same price as regular RAM and as I need more RAM for my server I think I'll get some anyway.

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post #3684 of 4324
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmp459 View Post

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiro_uspsss;11804932 
Originally Posted by tiro_uspsss;11804932 

I find it odd that so many 'servers' that ppl run dont have ECC ram :shrug:


Most home servers are really just serving up files and doing menial hosting tasks... and it is far cheaper to just use older desktop components than going out of the way to get a server board and ecc ram.


If we were talking a 24/7 production environment w/ ram intensive applications or databases... that would be a different story.


For the most part even when using the server as a DC and letting it handle dhcp/dns for my network, filesharing, and backups, its barely going through the paces... not really too many places for memory errors.


Also ive been running this hardware for years and am very confident on what is 100% stable in terms of memory timings/voltages. Ive had my server board and ram paired together since like 2008.
I know this isn't the right place to ask but is the above still valid? I created a thread about my intentions of building a file/media server and decided on getting a Xeon, 16GB ECC RAM and a board to go with it, which is basically what people recommend on the Freenas forums. I've seen threads in which people were almost lynched for stating they were going to use something other than server class hardware yet from what I've seen Kyadk uses normal consumer hardware (8320, non-ECC RAM and a 'gaming' board) as server.

So, now I'm wondering whether someone who is just going to use his server as film, music and photo server really needs to use server class hardware or whether consumer level equipment also will suffice.

Normal ECC is 9-bit, the 9th being on if the number of bits in the other 8 is even or odd (one of the two, can't remember which), and it then compares those two vaules. If you get a "10011100", and the 9th bit is "1", then the CPU knows it failed at data integrity. This kind of ECC actually does work in my 990FXA-UD5 and 970A-UD3 if I cared to do so. I'm fairly certain it will work in my X99-Deluxe when it moves to server duty. UnBuffered ECC is fairly common, not too expensive, and is socket compatable with normal RAM.

The big boy expensive RAM is Buffered ECC, and those chips can pack 64GB on a DIMM. They are also incredibly expensive, no matter how old.

I run the risk of data integrity by choosing to not run ECC, but my servers are almost 100% handmedown parts from my main rig. There is no 24/7 mission critical thing on my servers that I do not have a redundant copy of on the other server, including DHCP/DNS/AD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Versa View Post

You don't need server class hardware/ECC even in ZFS for home use. I'm pretty sure if you mention non-ECC memory on FreeNAS forums and they will lynch you kookoo.gif

Even have my plex server running on my rig below.
You should take a look at their forums to see what they say. They stress over and over again that ECC is an absolute must due to ZFS and Raid5/6 becoming irretrievably corrupted during repair after even a single bad bit has been written to the disk.

Not to sound like a broken record, but yet another reason I use RAID cards and not software RAID. It isn't a viable solution for FreeNAS, but if my card dies I just plug the drives into another one. If data is written wrong to a drive, I take it out, wipe it, put it back in, and rebuild the array. Not that it has happened yet.

You still have the very real risk of bit rot. No hardware raid controller can prevent that. (As far as I know at least) This is why Ecc is a must with zfs or btrs. Without the Ecc data integrity is questionable at best.

Rebuilding an array is great unless you have bit rot then you're just rebuilding an array of corrupted data.


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post #3685 of 4324
Quote:
Originally Posted by CookieSayWhat View Post

You still have the very real risk of bit rot. No hardware raid controller can prevent that. (As far as I know at least) This is why Ecc is a must with zfs or btrs. Without the Ecc data integrity is questionable at best.

Rebuilding an array is great unless you have bit rot then you're just rebuilding an array of corrupted data.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

After reading about the benefits of ECC I have come to that same conclusion. Will start with 8GB registered ECC and see if that's enough.

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post #3686 of 4324
Quote:
Originally Posted by CookieSayWhat View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmp459 View Post

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiro_uspsss;11804932 
Originally Posted by tiro_uspsss;11804932 

I find it odd that so many 'servers' that ppl run dont have ECC ram :shrug:


Most home servers are really just serving up files and doing menial hosting tasks... and it is far cheaper to just use older desktop components than going out of the way to get a server board and ecc ram.


If we were talking a 24/7 production environment w/ ram intensive applications or databases... that would be a different story.


For the most part even when using the server as a DC and letting it handle dhcp/dns for my network, filesharing, and backups, its barely going through the paces... not really too many places for memory errors.


Also ive been running this hardware for years and am very confident on what is 100% stable in terms of memory timings/voltages. Ive had my server board and ram paired together since like 2008.
I know this isn't the right place to ask but is the above still valid? I created a thread about my intentions of building a file/media server and decided on getting a Xeon, 16GB ECC RAM and a board to go with it, which is basically what people recommend on the Freenas forums. I've seen threads in which people were almost lynched for stating they were going to use something other than server class hardware yet from what I've seen Kyadk uses normal consumer hardware (8320, non-ECC RAM and a 'gaming' board) as server.

So, now I'm wondering whether someone who is just going to use his server as film, music and photo server really needs to use server class hardware or whether consumer level equipment also will suffice.

Normal ECC is 9-bit, the 9th being on if the number of bits in the other 8 is even or odd (one of the two, can't remember which), and it then compares those two vaules. If you get a "10011100", and the 9th bit is "1", then the CPU knows it failed at data integrity. This kind of ECC actually does work in my 990FXA-UD5 and 970A-UD3 if I cared to do so. I'm fairly certain it will work in my X99-Deluxe when it moves to server duty. UnBuffered ECC is fairly common, not too expensive, and is socket compatable with normal RAM.

The big boy expensive RAM is Buffered ECC, and those chips can pack 64GB on a DIMM. They are also incredibly expensive, no matter how old.

I run the risk of data integrity by choosing to not run ECC, but my servers are almost 100% handmedown parts from my main rig. There is no 24/7 mission critical thing on my servers that I do not have a redundant copy of on the other server, including DHCP/DNS/AD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Versa View Post

You don't need server class hardware/ECC even in ZFS for home use. I'm pretty sure if you mention non-ECC memory on FreeNAS forums and they will lynch you kookoo.gif

Even have my plex server running on my rig below.
You should take a look at their forums to see what they say. They stress over and over again that ECC is an absolute must due to ZFS and Raid5/6 becoming irretrievably corrupted during repair after even a single bad bit has been written to the disk.

Not to sound like a broken record, but yet another reason I use RAID cards and not software RAID. It isn't a viable solution for FreeNAS, but if my card dies I just plug the drives into another one. If data is written wrong to a drive, I take it out, wipe it, put it back in, and rebuild the array. Not that it has happened yet.

You still have the very real risk of bit rot. No hardware raid controller can prevent that. (As far as I know at least) This is why Ecc is a must with zfs or btrs. Without the Ecc data integrity is questionable at best.

Rebuilding an array is great unless you have bit rot then you're just rebuilding an array of corrupted data.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Media is on the disk, not in RAM. What exactly do you think I'm writing 24/7 that the bits will sit in RAM long enough to do something? What proof do you have of corrupted info that actually continues to work?

Do you have MD5 proof, or do your RAID arrays just, die? Because frankly, if that were even remotely true, the data I have from servers over a decade old are either the biggest statistical anomaly in history, or my ISO of Brood War is just broken in ways I don't notice.

If ECC was a requirement for either of those, Linux distros would not run them from bone stock configs. BTRS is OpenSUSE's standard "next next next" option. So that is 100% pure grain false info. And while we're on the topic, what makes ZFS and BTRS so prone to error as compared to, say, NTFS, that they would even try to replace EXT with it? That logic makes no sense. There is nothing special about ZFS or BTRS.


ECC is good and helpful. Pretending it's a requirement is lying to yourself. "Questionable at best" is a massive massive exaggeration, and if it were true, we wouldn't have non-ECC anymore.
Edited by KyadCK - 6/21/16 at 10:55pm
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post #3687 of 4324
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Media is on the disk, not in RAM. What exactly do you think I'm writing 24/7 that the bits will sit in RAM long enough to do something? What proof do you have of corrupted info that actually continues to work?

Do you have MD5 proof, or do your RAID arrays just, die? Because frankly, if that were even remotely true, the data I have from servers over a decade old are either the biggest statistical anomaly in history, or my ISO of Brood War is just broken in ways I don't notice.

If ECC was a requirement for either of those, Linux distros would not run them from bone stock configs. BTRS is OpenSUSE's standard "next next next" option. So that is 100% pure grain false info. And while we're on the topic, what makes ZFS and BTRS so prone to error as compared to, say, NTFS, that they would even try to replace EXT with it? That logic makes no sense. There is nothing special about ZFS or BTRS.


ECC is good and helpful. Pretending it's a requirement is lying to yourself. "Questionable at best" is a massive massive exaggeration, and if it were true, we wouldn't have non-ECC anymore.

No your data is not sitting in the ram, but the calculation about how to put your data on the disks (in case of software raid) has to use the system ram. If a flipped bit occurs there your data will be written to the disk incorrectly or become corrupted if you will.

Watch the video I link below and it's second part for MD5 proof, and detailed explanation of this topic. And yes, your Brood War ISO may be broken without you knowing it, it might appear completely fine, but if you check the MD5 sum or try to mount it might turn up corrupted.

NTFS is a completely different beast compared to ZFS and BTRFS, with NTFS you don't have to make any calculations about splitting and putting data back to gather to read and write from the disk since you are only handling a single disk with that. ZFS and BTRFS on the other hand has to calculate stuff like this because they span across multiple disks with striping. You could argue that ReiserFS does this too but, that addresses disks individually too, so this doesn't become a problem. Also this is an issue with standard raid controllers too, as those have to make the same calculations and use ram for these too, the only difference is that those have their own processor and ram to do these.

Also this is where the advantage of ZFS and alike come in, these file systems have built-in measures to detect and correct bit rot, which the HW raid controllers do not.

The videos I meantions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAuEgepZG_8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv9smNQ5fG0
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post #3688 of 4324
Just because someone hasn't experienced it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I've been a victim of bit-rot on my old Windows Home Server v1. I had several corrupt family photos, corrupt program installers, corrupt ISO images, and corrupt MP3 files. Luckily I had a backup on a set of dual layer DVD's at the time. You may not even realize you have bit-rot until months/years later when you go to open a file that you really need.. which is what happened to me. I now use a home server with ECC RAM + SnapRAID + Backblaze off-site backup. Since the components required for ECC support doesn't really cost much more than a normal desktop consumer grade system, I now build all my servers with ECC support. Bit-rot isn't some mythical creature, but it also doesn't happen all too often. When it does happen though, it really sucks and you'll probably wish you had spent a few extra dollars on a proper setup to prevent it. It's especially bad when it's in a RAID system and the parity gets calculated with bad data.. then the changes are irreversible.
Edited by wiretap - 6/22/16 at 6:26am
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post #3689 of 4324
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

Found a lot of really cheap registered/buffered ECC RAM at less than 15 USD but need Opteron or Xeons for them. Non-registered/buffered RAM is more expensive but can still be found for around the same price as regular RAM and as I need more RAM for my server I think I'll get some anyway.

I can not speak for AMD, but on Intel some Celeron and Pentium chips support ECC. My freenas server was using a Pentium with ECC before the bigger Xeon was added for plex. My pfSense router is also using ECC with a $30 Celeron. You just need to check the Intel Ark page before you buy. Pretty sure there are a few i3 chips too.
 
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post #3690 of 4324
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aximous View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Media is on the disk, not in RAM. What exactly do you think I'm writing 24/7 that the bits will sit in RAM long enough to do something? What proof do you have of corrupted info that actually continues to work?

Do you have MD5 proof, or do your RAID arrays just, die? Because frankly, if that were even remotely true, the data I have from servers over a decade old are either the biggest statistical anomaly in history, or my ISO of Brood War is just broken in ways I don't notice.

If ECC was a requirement for either of those, Linux distros would not run them from bone stock configs. BTRS is OpenSUSE's standard "next next next" option. So that is 100% pure grain false info. And while we're on the topic, what makes ZFS and BTRS so prone to error as compared to, say, NTFS, that they would even try to replace EXT with it? That logic makes no sense. There is nothing special about ZFS or BTRS.


ECC is good and helpful. Pretending it's a requirement is lying to yourself. "Questionable at best" is a massive massive exaggeration, and if it were true, we wouldn't have non-ECC anymore.

No your data is not sitting in the ram, but the calculation about how to put your data on the disks (in case of software raid) has to use the system ram. If a flipped bit occurs there your data will be written to the disk incorrectly or become corrupted if you will.

Watch the video I link below and it's second part for MD5 proof, and detailed explanation of this topic. And yes, your Brood War ISO may be broken without you knowing it, it might appear completely fine, but if you check the MD5 sum or try to mount it might turn up corrupted.

NTFS is a completely different beast compared to ZFS and BTRFS, with NTFS you don't have to make any calculations about splitting and putting data back to gather to read and write from the disk since you are only handling a single disk with that. ZFS and BTRFS on the other hand has to calculate stuff like this because they span across multiple disks with striping. You could argue that ReiserFS does this too but, that addresses disks individually too, so this doesn't become a problem. Also this is an issue with standard raid controllers too, as those have to make the same calculations and use ram for these too, the only difference is that those have their own processor and ram to do these.

Also this is where the advantage of ZFS and alike come in, these file systems have built-in measures to detect and correct bit rot, which the HW raid controllers do not.

The videos I meantions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAuEgepZG_8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv9smNQ5fG0

Correct. Not for me though, because P410s.

Thank you for actual MD5 proof.

No it isn't. You can RAID0/STRIPE with NTFS. Again, if this were such a big problem, we would not have moved on from EXT to BTRFS on OpenSUSE as the standard file system.

Standard RAID controllers with their own RAM use... Buffered ECC. In fact, the good ones even have battery backups (and they do complain if you disconnect them, loudly) and use Flash for their cache instead of volatile memory to ensure data loss due to power failure doesn't happen. Either way, see below.

So ZFS has error correction, making ECC less of a requirement, not more. So I was right. The big issue with using normal RAM for FreeNAS to my understanding is because it will use as much RAM as it can to cache data, meaning it DOES stay in RAM at all times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiretap View Post

Just because someone hasn't experienced it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I've been a victim of bit-rot on my old Windows Home Server v1. I had several corrupt family photos, corrupt program installers, corrupt ISO images, and corrupt MP3 files. Luckily I had a backup on a set of dual layer DVD's at the time. You may not even realize you have bit-rot until months/years later when you go to open a file that you really need.. which is what happened to me. I now use a home server with ECC RAM + SnapRAID + Backblaze off-site backup. Since the components required for ECC support doesn't really cost much more than a normal desktop consumer grade system, I now build all my servers with ECC support. Bit-rot isn't some mythical creature, but it also doesn't happen all too often. When it does happen though, it really sucks and you'll probably wish you had spent a few extra dollars on a proper setup to prevent it. It's especially bad when it's in a RAID system and the parity gets calculated with bad data.. then the changes are irreversible.

You're right, it isn't some Mystical creature, but it also does not simply happen over time (and involve system RAM) either unless you're defragging your disk and actually writing data, which you should not do when archiving. If you are loosing data without writing anything, you have straight up data loss due to the storage medium; your HDD/SSD/Array is dying.

The funny thing to me is people arguing that this is something I wouldn't notice. You fail to understand my array.

My primary SSD array is run off a P410 with 1GB BBWB, and presented to the OS (ESXi) as one large drive (~1.2TB, it and the HDD arrays are both 4x 500GB in RAID5). All RAID functionality is provided by the controllers (3 of them). This disk is presented to ESXi, which claims the partitioning with VMFS. From there, I create VMs, which sit on top of the Hypervisor, and create their "disks" (files to ESX), which get presented to a VM. My main archiving server has two main "drives", both are located on different P410s. They are not set as software RAID in windows, the files are simply written to both; specifically to avoid software RAID failure, actually, and allow me to just reassign the VMDKs to another OS if I want to upgrade/change my storage server's OS.

If the RAM were to corrupt the data on the way to a P410 (which does it's RAID calculations without the System CPU/RAM, obviously), then the file wouldn't work upon initial write. I have two copies, plus my original. If one failed, it would be deleted and another copy made.

If the main "file" (the VMDK) were to be corrupted by a P410 against the MD5 file ESXi compares it to automatically, it would throw a warning. But they haven't. If the file in the NTFS/BTRFS/FS-of-choice inside the VMDK failed, the files wouldn't work, and in the case of the archive, I'd make a copy from the other RAID array.

In the event all that fails, Servers 1 and 2 take the occasional VMDK backups of one another, which is good, because if either server fails, I can assign the VMX to the server's roster and fire it up in seconds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prophet4NO1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

Found a lot of really cheap registered/buffered ECC RAM at less than 15 USD but need Opteron or Xeons for them. Non-registered/buffered RAM is more expensive but can still be found for around the same price as regular RAM and as I need more RAM for my server I think I'll get some anyway.

I can not speak for AMD, but on Intel some Celeron and Pentium chips support ECC. My freenas server was using a Pentium with ECC before the bigger Xeon was added for plex. My pfSense router is also using ECC with a $30 Celeron. You just need to check the Intel Ark page before you buy. Pretty sure there are a few i3 chips too.

AMD's chips can, but you need a motherboard that supports it. All 900-series Gigabyte boards do, as far as I am aware.

Correct, but be careful, not all of them do. Be certain the model you're buying.
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