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post #771 of 4211
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramicio View Post

This is why normal people stress test the drives first and weed out the DOAs. Nice try.
DOAs aren't the issue. It's defects that manifest themselves 6/12 months down the line. If there's a common fault then the whole batch dies. In fact this kind of scenario is disappointingly common.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramicio View Post

I'm not going to spoon feed you the information. If you don't understand how expanding works and how writing entire drives at a time is a huge risk, you won't grasp that this sentence in itself is an explanation.
So basically you don't actually know what you're talking about and would rather berate and bluff your way out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramicio View Post

I never said you can't mix different drives, I just said it's retarded, risky, and only hurts performance.
Cannot / should not. The context was pretty clear on both our parts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramicio View Post

My philosophy is "go big or go home."
Yeah, because bigger capacity drives are less error prone than smaller capacity drives rolleyes.gif


If you actually have any scientific merit to your claims then I suggest you make them known. A number of us on here would genuinely be interested (and happily accept we were wrong). However the way you're carrying on, you'll just be brushed off as yet another internet anom who talks big but can't substantiate their claims.
Edited by Plan9 - 7/19/12 at 6:52am
post #772 of 4211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

If you actually have any scientific merit to your claims then I suggest you make them known. A number of us on here would genuinely be interested (and happily accept we were wrong). However the way you're carrying on, you'll just be brushed off as yet another internet anom who talks big but can't substantiate their claims.

x2
post #773 of 4211
Quote:
Originally Posted by tycoonbob View Post

x2

X3'ed. smile.gif
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post #774 of 4211
post #775 of 4211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aestylis View Post

X3'ed. smile.gif

X4'ed
post #776 of 4211
Quote:
Originally Posted by S3phro View Post

How do you justify needing that much space at home though?
In an enterprise environment I can understand but no way would you be using one controller for that many drives, sure you'd have redundancy on the drives but if the hardware in the chassi fails you have one huge single point of failure..
I've come to the conclusion if you need that much storage at home you're into some seriously kinky stuff..
like many of us on here with home servers, Mine too is used to house all my movies hd and not but mainly in HD. TV shows, music and more. if which hw that fails? I am using a raid card with an expander. if the expander dies i can get another one, if the raid card dies I have a spare same model Data would still be intact i would just have to swap out the failed part. as for the kinky stuff, non of that is on my server lol,,, they are stored on the my old drives in a box.biggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramicio View Post

This is why normal people stress test the drives first and weed out the DOAs. Nice try. I'm not going to spoon feed you the information. If you don't understand how expanding works and how writing entire drives at a time is a huge risk, you won't grasp that this sentence in itself is an explanation. I never said you can't mix different drives, I just said it's retarded, risky, and only hurts performance. My philosophy is "go big or go home."
I test all drives that i buy...I understand your concern ramicio but expanding itself doesn't put the data at risk, it is failed hw that does that...so we are always at some level of risk. if a batch of drives die during an expansion then yes there will be trouble, if a batch of drives die at idle, there is still trouble. if data is at such a high concern, there needs to be a backup plan in place. my server is not backed up, it is just not practical for me to backup the entire 30plus TBs but i do have a folder that is backed up local and offsite for my most valuables. buy and building a server with all drives populated at once just makes no sense.. even if you have the cash. again the downside of doing it all in one shot.

1) higher electricity bill for drives not in use but spun up.
2) premature use of drives that are not being used or filled but spun up.
3) waste of warranty on drives that are not being used but spinning
4) price changes on drives, could have saved a few hundred if you got them spread out in time as you needed them.
5) as already mentioned, the chance of landing drives from a bad batch

as for drive models no longer being available.. this is true but not a problem, the newer version of the drives will not only most likely be cheaper but will only perform as your well as your weakest drive.
My setup started with 2tb hitachi 7k2000 drives, I needed to expand and could no longer find 7k2000 drives so i moved on to use 7k3000 drives and no performance issues. they are all still 2tb drives. and all still hitachi drives.
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post #777 of 4211
I'm going to have to x5 this. I have never lost an array to expending, but I lost a six +1 drive raid 5 to a bad batch. Its better to keep backups on completely different drive when you start the array and then expend the array slowly. If the model isn't available chose the closest one, all that happens is the faster drive is stunted at the lower ones performance, unless your controller is from like 1980
Edited by jrl1357 - 7/19/12 at 1:46pm
post #778 of 4211
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramicio View Post

Expanding over and over DOES put the data at risk, ******* *******. You are taking an entire drive, reading it, and writing it back. That whole path through the controller is also risk to the data. It's very most possible you hit the URE expanding little by little like this. You ******* are blindly assuming that everything operates in a perfect world without stray particles. But go ahead, expand your multi-TB array 2 drives at a time over and over again. Just don't come crying when you have files that are corrupt from doing so. Cheap people who like to ****** rig stuff are the ones who like to mix drives.

You've still not actually stated why it's dangerous.

From what little information you've posted, it sounds like you're argument is largely focused around the dangers of adding fresh drives to worn drives - but that's less dangerous than having an entire array of worn drives (as you would if you bought you're entire pool from the start). If I've misunderstood you, then please enlighten me, but the dumbed down version you've stated here really don't explain much at all.

As for the "stray particles" argument; that's going to happen regardless of whether you buy all your gear up front or expand over time. So your argument is moot. Plus random failures like that is why there's a whole plethora of read and write checks from file system based checksums through to real time memory checks for write holes.

So you're not really making a coherent argument here and everything you've stated would be a risk regardless of how you built your storage pool. What's worse is that given the supposed superiority of your understanding, you've still failed to provide any technical explanation aside crudely proclaiming Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle.
Edited by Plan9 - 7/20/12 at 6:47am
post #779 of 4211
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramicio View Post

Expanding over and over DOES put the data at risk, ******* *******. You are taking an entire drive, reading it, and writing it back. That whole path through the controller is also risk to the data. It's very most possible you hit the URE expanding little by little like this. You ******* are blindly assuming that everything operates in a perfect world without stray particles. But go ahead, expand your multi-TB array 2 drives at a time over and over again. Just don't come crying when you have files that are corrupt from doing so. Cheap people who like to ****** rig stuff are the ones who like to mix drives.

There's no reason to use language like that or be offensive, even if it is censored.
post #780 of 4211
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramicio View Post

Expanding over and over DOES put the data at risk, ******* *******. You are taking an entire drive, reading it, and writing it back. That whole path through the controller is also risk to the data. It's very most possible you hit the URE expanding little by little like this. You ******* are blindly assuming that everything operates in a perfect world without stray particles. But go ahead, expand your multi-TB array 2 drives at a time over and over again. Just don't come crying when you have files that are corrupt from doing so. Cheap people who like to ****** rig stuff are the ones who like to mix drives.

I kinda understand where you are going with the URE argument, but when using a real raid controller, the drives are being scrubbed in the background. When you expand an array, that's similar to a rebuild in how the drive performance will be lessened, etc. When doing a rebuild of a Raid 5, and you encounter a URE, rebuild would stop and kill the array. However, when using a quality controller, UREs will be discovered well before the rebuild, due to background scrubbing.

A typical consumer grade SATA HDD is rated at 1x10^14 URE (1 bit in about 12TB), with enterprise grade HDDs rated at 1x10^15 or 1x10^16. This shows that when buying quality parts, you lessen the risk. Also, it depends on how large your array is, and how large it is going to be. Most importantly, background scrubbing can prevent any UREs in the first place. Don't go cheap on your controller for this reason alone.
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