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Connect radiators in parallel to increase cooling by radiator! - Page 3

post #21 of 52
The title's wrong--sorry.

I just want to thank Paul for his explanation of thermodynamics--I'm too tired to scrutinize it now, but what I see looks correct, useful, and clearly presented.

Isn't the bottom line that for a water cooling setup, turbulent flow is better, because it effectively mixes the hot water near the copper surface of the waterblock (or cool water next to the copper in the radiator) with the cooler (warmer in the radiator) water next to it?

Yeah, I can imagine laminar flow in a tube (in say a waterblock), where the water at different radiuses is moving at different speeds, like a bunch of nested pipes? Get the image? And the water at the greatest radius, touching the pipe's inner surface, would slow down and trap its heat, not mixing with the faster-moving water in the center of the pipe? Sort of like those cholestrol-filled artery animations?

Make sense? This would give explain why turbulent flow might be better. I find clear and simple models help get concepts across, and the more brilliant the person, the clearer and simpler they can make difficult ideas. That explains Steven Hawkings, who rarely says "I could explain it to you, but you'd have to take a string-theory class first".

Thanks for the explanation.
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post #22 of 52
With my experience very little is to be gained by changing the configurations of your system.What would be needed would be some sort of switching system controlled by temperature.
You would need a thermal probe and a two way valve, And all the stuff to make it work.
Basically when the temp of one loop raises to a set point it will switch to the other loop. This will give lower temps. but will also raise the maximum temp of the sytem. It might also cause a chance of cavitation at the valve.

What you guys are trying to achieve is allowing the water to stay in the radiators longer to allow more cooling. But the best way to achive this would be a variable pump, and differnt size tubing to create the turbulence and velocity that you would want. I am no physics major, but I think what i say stands true
    
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post #23 of 52
Thread Starter 
I think we need to find someone with two radiators who will be will to test this!
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post #24 of 52
first of an explanation of the fixed flow pump. its quite simple and i hope to provide a simple model of the explanation. lets take for example a CSH Mag pump which has a rated flow of 450LPH with a power consumption of 8.0W and is able to pump water to 13.0 feet. what does this mean? it means the pump draws a power of 8.0W to pump 450LPH of water or it will draw the same amount of power (more or less) to pump water to a height of 13feet. it does not pump 450LPH of water to a height of 13f unless its expressly indicated to be the case under which circumstances the pump will consume more power. as for the motor if it is rated to consume 8.0W then it will consume that amount of power; no more and no less (under normal operating conditions). the only way an axial or centrifugal pump (as that which is found in the wc systems) can consume more or less power and therefore fluctuate the flow is by the use of a Variable Frequency Drive (FVD) which modulates the frequency of power and therefore rotation of motor and therefore the flow of the liquid being pumped. The most important prerequisite for a VFD is AC current. most wc pumps utilize DC current which cannot be modulated and therefore the flow cannot be modulated. if you have an AC pump then it has to have a VFD or frequency adjuster to modulate flow. otherwise the flow is at the given flowrate of the pump at the corresponding head.

lets discuss head and flow. as mentioned earlier the pump can deliver either 450LPH or 13feet head and not both. and what is head? head or NPSH is basically the maximum height ur pump can pump water to and this is directly related to relative positioning of the components in the wc system. once the positions are fixed the head does not change unless ur reservoir level changes drastically (which happens during startup, stop and leakages). therefore at a given head there is a fixed flow. the flow will not change because u squeeze the tube, burst the block and other simple stuff. what will happen is the bernoulli equation will take place. when u squeeze the tube u induce a constriction to the flow which will cause a pressure drop and therefore increas in velocity to maintain the flow.

now every pump is powered by a motor. the total output of the pump is entirely dependent on the motor output and efficiency. what it means is the motor consumes 8W of power to pump water. all motors work on induction of elecromagnetic force to rotate the motor shaft and therefore also the pump rotor shaft.
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post #25 of 52
Thread Starter 
^ What does that have to do with our topic? It is good info, but sort of ilrelevent.
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post #26 of 52
sorry paul but plz read Dr.devilles previous post on page 2. thats why i put forward the above explanation. didnt mean to hijack your thread mate.
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post #27 of 52
Why doesn't someone with a heatercore go out and spend another 20 bucks to get another and round up some fans and test it out, I'd be interested to see what happens.
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post #28 of 52
Again, apoligies to all for belaboring this, but I think it is a very important insight that we can all use--how a system is arranged (parallel versus series), tubing diameter, tubing length, and constrictions all affect flow and performance.

Hey Cyrix,

Thanks for taking the time to try to sort this out, and for concentrating on basic principles, which makes our discussion useful to more people.

I'm afraid you are still mistaken in your belief of constant flow.

At the heart of it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyrixMII300
there is a fixed flow. the flow will not change because u squeeze the tube, burst the block and other simple stuff.
This is simply not true, as anyone can easily verify--reach in and squeeze one of the tubes in a watercooling setup. Flow will reduce until the tube is squeezed shut, when it will stop entirely.

For those who want to see where Cyrix has gotten lost, here's a more detailed explanation:

Quote:
head or NPSH is basically the maximum height ur pump can pump water to and this is directly related to relative positioning of the components in the wc system.
Close, but not quite true--you are equating the unit of measurement with the concept. More precisely, head is the maximum pressure that a pump can provide, commonly measured by the maximum height of a column of water that pressure will support--the higher the column-height, the greater the pressure required.

And resistance to flow is related to the position of the components, but not entirely determined by them. Obviously the characteristics of the components themselves affect flow resistance--things like narrowness of tubing, constrictions, and length of tubing--along with whether they are arranged in series (one after the other, a given molecule has to pass through all components) or parallel (next to each other with y connectors, a given molecule has more than one route it can take).

Quote:
once the positions are fixed the head does not change unless ur reservoir level changes drastically
Here is where you misapply the concept, by equating flow resistance with relative height of components. This is simply not true, for changing the way the components are hooked up (say waterblocks one after the other, versus in parallel) changes the flow resistance.

This is a very important thing to realize, and is one of the reasons why people need more powerful pumps to maintain a given level of flow in complex/long systems.

This is in no way a criticism of Cyrix, for I respect him and his participation. In fact I'm grateful to him, for by debating this I hope we have both deepened our understanding, and helped others understand.

Thanks to all for listening, and I hope this helps!
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post #29 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldovi
^ What does that have to do with our topic? It is good info, but sort of ilrelevent.
Apologies Paul, we have hijacked your thread. It is a side track indeed, but relevant, for Cyrix is contending that you would have the same total flow in both your systems, series versus parallel radiators, while I contend parallel configuration will reduce flow resistance, and increase flow.
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post #30 of 52
i again refrain from commenting on your insight Dr. deville, primarily because i believe just as long as you do not seek to get a better understanding on what you are actually talking about or at the least read some of the books that i have quoted in the other thread from which you have taken some some of the material for this post from; you are still going to try and prove your point which is completely wrong and baseless.

i really dont fancy trying to prove to someone who doesnt even seem to have a basic knowledge of engineering and physic concepts what is already proven and widely utilized.

just as an afterthought, i need to ask. where do u get ur ideas from? are they based on proven engineering and fluid dynamics concepts or you just think them up? no offense but i really would like to know. because the information i have mentioned u can check for urself in the books i have already quoted and would like to see the source of your information so i can learn and understand better. unless u r saying that all those engineers and scientists are wrong of course.

edit
btw, Dr. deville, if u intend to continue this banter, lets take it off air by pm. no offense to you and please dont take it as if i m running away but i have noticed that there have been quite a few public squabbles lately and i dont think it is a good image for the newcomers and is definitely a bad precedent. so if u dont mind, get me a pm.
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