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post #51 of 58
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So you would be the go-to guy.

Your posts are very informative but right now I just need a simple answer. Do I need any sort of protection. If so, what.

I'm sorry if you said this in your posts but I am a bit overwhelmed
post #52 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
So why do 'whole house' protectors earth directly lightning strikes and remain functional. How does 350 joules (never more than 700 joules) absorb a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules?
It doesn't. The suppressor, or at least it's fuse, fries.

Quote:
Take a $3 power strip. Add some ten cent protector parts. That sells for $7 in a grocery store, is that APC protector for $25, and is the same circuit selling in Monster Cable for $150.
No doubt.

The extra 20 bucks is APCs insurance. If a suge makes it through their protector, they say they will cover a few grand of the damages.

Quote:
Undersized protectors are designed to disconnect as fast as possible from the surge. Abandon the appliance to that energy. Sometimes they do not disconnect fast enough.
No arguing with this either.

However, many times it will disconnect fast enough. Many times is better than never.

Quote:
See that $25,000 warranty? Read the fine print exemptions. It is not honored. For example, one of APCs so many exemptions said any protector from any other manufacturer volds this APC warranty. GM has the best warranties. Does that provide GM superior to Honda and Toyota? Of course not. The largest warranty is ofte the indicator of the worst products. Read the fine print to learn why so many had their claims denied.
And if you follow the restrictions, the claim will probably hold.

http://www.apc.com/support/service/e...ion_policy.cfm

http://emea-en.apc.com/cgi-bin/emea_...00&p_topview=1

Quote:
Effective protection means the protector never fails. That nobody knew a surge even existed. That is why informed homeowners earth one 'whole house' protector. Sized to earth even direct lightning strikes - and remain functional. Even sold in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. Which is an effective protection that costs about $1 per protected appliance.
I'm not a homeowner, I'm a renter. I also move around a lot. It's not feasible for me to ensure that every place I'm using my system is ideally protected.

A 20 dollar surge protector that will prevent damage to my system most of the time is worthwhile.
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post #53 of 58
@KG363

I think a surge protector is worthwhile, I'd pick a reputable brand, like APC, Tripplite, or Cyberpower, and get something with the highest number in joules that's in your price range-
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post #54 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by KG363 View Post
Your posts are very informative but right now I just need a simple answer. Do I need any sort of protection. If so, what.
That was answered long ago.
Quote:
How often do you have destructive transients? Neighborhood history over the past ten years is relevant. How often do you replace clock radios, smoke detectors, and the dishwasher? Myths claim surges occur hourly. Notice long lines in hardware stores to replace timer switches and door bells. All appliances contain serious protection. Your concern is a surge that might happen once every seven year.
As for what - will that was also posted earlier. Earthing must meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical code. And one 'whole house' protector from a long list of responsible companies that include General Electric, Siemens, Intermatic, Leviton, and Square D. Even the Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50.

Any protector that would protect by disconnecting is promoting a scam. Nothing stops surges. For over 100 years, the above solutions have always been the only effective solution.
What one looks like:
http://www.smarthome.com/4870.HTML
post #55 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by cr1 View Post
I think a surge protector is worthwhile, I'd pick a reputable brand, like APC, Tripplite, or Cyberpower, and get something with the highest number in joules that's in your price range-
Show me that protector rated at hundreds of thousands of joules? It must absorb that much energy and not create those scary pictures. Listed were responsible companies. Not on that list are APC, Tripplite, and Monster Cable.

Monster has a long history of identifying scam. Then marketing same products for even higher prices. If Monster is selling it, all those products are probably scams.

How to see APC et al as ineffective. 1) No dedicated wire to earth. 2) Will not discuss earthing. 3) Where is the manufacturer spec numbers for protection from each type of surge? They don't claim protection. They only claim to have protectors that absorb tiny amounts of energy.

Protection is *always* about where energy dissiaptes. Always. Where does APC, Tripplite, etc even discuss that? If you only understand one thing, then this is that only paragraph. Energy must dissipate harmlessly outside the building. Or energy will go hunting for earth ground destructively via appliances. With or without a plug-in protector. No earth ground means the protector is ineffective as so many citations show. Only earth is protection. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
post #56 of 58
You keep talking about things like lightning strikes and the need to absorb massive amounts of power, when that is not the nature of most surges.

Your own links support the idea that even cheap surge suppressors can successfully divert lower power surges hundreds of times. Every one of these it diverts is one your PSU doesn't have to handle.

I have no illusions about any of my surge protectors, or the equipment connected to them, surviving a lightning strike, or any surge massive enough to overcome the ability of the 14 gauge ground wire attached to the third pin to redirect. However, small every day surges like those caused by changing loads on on the same circuit, or questionable power delivery, can be successfully reduced by them.
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post #57 of 58
I'm not even going to directly respond to westom, but on the other hand:

OP, everything on this site most of the time should be taken with a grain of salt. My objective wasn't to get you to buy THAT model. I had the understanding that you were looking for a decent UPS, so I just showed a model of the one I have that I have had good PERSONAL experience with. One thing that's better than statistics, in my opinion, is personal experience. I had two surge protectors of different brands and "qualities" go out (and take my PSU with it on one occasion) while in my college dorm. I've had the same power problems since the UPS and it hasn't blown out. Who knows, maybe I got lucky. It's done it's job and didn't have my PSU blown, kept my PC on for a few minutes to let me properly shut it down, and did as advertised.

My objective wasn't to get you to buy the UPS I have or even say 'you have to get one, OMGOSH!' It was to give you a personal story of how it helped me.
Edited by pez - 6/8/10 at 4:33pm
 
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post #58 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post
You keep talking about things like lightning strikes and the need to absorb massive amounts of power, when that is not the nature of most surges.
Let's define what a surge is. Many are told surges can occur many times every day. That is only noise. Transients so trivial that even dimmer switches and GFCIs are not harmed.

All appliances contain significant protection. Which is a surge and which is noise? Destructive surges - what is necessary to actually cause damage - occur typically once every seven years. A number that can change significantly even within the same town. For example, a central FL resident may average a surge every three years. Therefore central FL homes (properly constructed) installed surge protection (Ufer grounds) when the first concrete is poured. Same is why this Orange County emergency response center upgraded / corrected their surge protection - the earthing:
http://www.psihq.com/AllCopper.htm

Why would a PSU adjacent to a protector fail? Because protectors too close to electronics and too far from earth ground can even contribute to appliance damage. An IEEE brochure demonstrates this; a protector earthing a surge 8000 volts through an adjacent TV because the protector was nearby - and too far from earth ground.

A 1994 IEEE paper from Dr Martzloff warns of plug-in (point of use) protectors contributing to damage - in his very first conclusion:
> Conclusion:
> 1) Quantitative measurements in the Upside-Down house clearly show objectionable difference
> in reference voltages. These occur even when or perhaps because, surge protective devices are
> present at the point of connection of appliances.

Install protectors only for the typically destructive surges - so that protection already in every appliance is not overwhelmed. Also makes lesser transients irrelevant. For example, what most needs that protection during a surge? The fire alarm system and communication to call for help. What protects them? Only a 'whole house' protector.

Scary pictures. Did you see what most fire departments have seen because a plug-in protector was inside a house on a desktop of papers or on a rug behind furniture? Those protectors are another reason why informed consumers earth only one 'whole house' protector. Those protectors need protection from one 'whole house' protector.

Norma on 27 Dec 2008 in alt.fiftyplus entitled "The Power Outage" describes the danger of power strip protectors:
> Today, the cable company came to replace a wire. Well the cable man pulled a wire and somehow
> yanked loose their "ground" wire. The granddaughter on the computer yelled and ran because
> sparks and smoke were coming from the power surge strip.

Sparks and smoke is acceptable protection? That protector did what its numeric specification say. A surge too small to harm any appliance easily destroyed the profit center. Informed consumers earth one 'whole house' protector. Money that would be wasted on a plug-in protector is best diverted to an earthing upgrade - what actually provides surge protection.
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