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Build Advice- Last Minute ideas before I meet with the buyers tomorrow. - Page 5

post #41 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ropey
Yes!!!!! You will be marrying it very well to that board and will have the added benefit of the dual cpu's. This will make resale a more attractive product should they decide to move up in the future. For the resale value alone this would be a great buy!

R
It seems like a great deal. This system should do well for them in a Vista Enviroment (plus 512mb RAM maybe). I think this is the final revision, although I am not meeting with them until the weekend to present the build to them. If they like it, its a go!
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post #42 of 59
Nice find!
I didn't know intel released that! AMD isn't going to be happy when intel peeps see this!
I still stress that you move to 1GB of RAM.... With the way software keeps developing into more graphical interfaces, RAM becomes more of an essential.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldovi
If everything but FAH uses very little RAM, then what purpose is it to have a ton of ram ?
I think this is the final revision. I am going to go and some research on the Celerons. My goal for this computer is that it be upgradeable for the future. That is why I insist on 775, DDR2, SATA, and PCIe. Those are the interfaces of the imediate future. That way, they can upgrade their computer whenever.
Everything you listed, not EVERYTHING.... Internet browsing is using a lot more RAM nowadays...
DDR2 is not doing well as of late. DDR still outperforms DDR2. The timings are a MAJOR flaw with the 240-PIN modules. But here is a good deal that might hold it's own against OCZ EL: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820146426
Best timings I can find with DDR2 533.
Like I said, DDR outperforms DDR2. Just look at my PCMark05 chart. DDR2, though at the top, had to be DOUBLED, and paired with the best Intel CPU (OC'd to 4.67GHz) to beat a DDR computer with an AMD 4400 OC'd to 2.8GHz... oh, and it was DDR 522 vs DDR2 667.
Why go to SATA? If you want to stress it, go for SATA II.
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post #43 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by klewiss
DDR2 is not doing well as of late. DDR still outperforms DDR2. The timings are a MAJOR flaw with the 240-PIN modules.
I would say that depends.....I have my current DDR2 timed at 3-3-3-8 (passed memtest 4 times) at 540Mhz. I haven't tried to go lower, so not sure if this is the lowest, but even still, that's comparable to DDR modules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by klewiss
Like I said, DDR outperforms DDR2. Just look at my PCMark05 chart. DDR2, though at the top, had to be DOUBLED, and paired with the best Intel CPU (OC'd to 4.67GHz) to beat a DDR computer with an AMD 4400 OC'd to 2.8GHz... oh, and it was DDR 522 vs DDR2 667.
I'd like to see that test. Since it doesn't sound like an accurate test of memory since both core systems were different (1 being an AMD and one being a Intel), what was the test trying to prove?

I'm not saying DDR2 is way better than DDR, it isn't right now....but it's not a complete waste either (although for this build, as was mentioned, the people do not want to have to tweak anything so DDR might get a leg up.......but when DDR2 starts geting better, they won't be able to take advantage without a completely new system. I doubt these casual users would even notice the looser stock timings of DDR2......)
post #44 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by klewiss
Like I said, DDR outperforms DDR2. Just look at my PCMark05 chart. DDR2, though at the top, had to be DOUBLED, and paired with the best Intel CPU (OC'd to 4.67GHz) to beat a DDR computer with an AMD 4400 OC'd to 2.8GHz... oh, and it was DDR 522 vs DDR2 667.
Why go to SATA? If you want to stress it, go for SATA II.
You are trying to compare something with WAY to many variables. That is like saying more people shop in December when it is cold out then shop in July when it is warm out. Therefore, people shop more when it is cold out. We all know this is not true.
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post #45 of 59
OK, look at these, and tell me what you think.
http://www.overclockercafe.com/Artic...DDR2/index.htm
I would wait untill the latencies go back down to 2...
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post #46 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by klewiss
I would wait untill the latencies go back down to 2...
Quote:
Originally Posted by overclockerscafe.com
Conclusions

When you get right down to it, for today's performance the differences between using DDR and DDR2 at 533MHz, there is little to no difference. Where DDR2 will shine, is in it's overclocking potential and the promise of future applications making use of it's enhanced speed and bandwidth. As when DDR was first introduced over SDRAM, it will be a while before these advantages are fully realized, but DDR2 will be sure to come into it's own sooner rather than later. Right now, there is no reason to upgrade your existing system based solely on DDR2. However, having said that, if you are already thinking it's time to upgrade, I would definitely recommend going with a DDR2 platform for future expandability not to mention it's overclocking potential.

We have every intention of revisiting this question in the future again once we get our hands on a better motherboard for further testing. Plus, I'm sure with a more stable board, we can reach some serious overclocks with this memory. So be sure to stay tuned in the near future for more information and articles following the progression of DDR2 and what it can mean for you.
Notice that the conclusion says at the moment the differences are minimal. However it does not say that the differences are lesser so why stay with old technology? You say wait. Why? Because AMD has no implimentation of DDR2? Why then when DDR2 is in implimentation would one wait and look for older technology when the newer is as fast. Look at the benchmarks. Not slower!

Quite often when new technology appears it is at parity with the old technology until the newer revisions appear. DDR2-800 is faster than DDR and the latencies are coming down.

Remember when SATA first appeared? Serial ATA when released had initial theoretical transfer rates of up to 150MB/s. Then came SATA II and it has a theoretical tranfer rate of 300MB/s of bandwidth. Now SATA III is coming out and the theoretical transfer rates are ~600MB/s. Four times faster.

The same thing is happening with DDR2. As well, one needs to compare the transfer rates on comparible machines. One can not test AMD vs Intel and DDR vs DDR2 that way as the HTT and onchip memory controller of the AMD platform will somewhat skew the results. Such tests are non-scientific.

R
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post #47 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ropey
Notice that the conclusion says at the moment the differences are minimal. However it does not say that the differences are lesser so why stay with old technology? You say wait. Why? Because AMD has no implimentation of DDR2? Why then when DDR2 is in implimentation would one wait and look for older technology when the newer is as fast. Look at the benchmarks. Not slower!
Notice they used DDR2 667. His neighbors pobably can't do that. a good set of DDR2 667 costs around $100 after rebates, and may possibly be slower than DDR for the same price, being that the DDR2 cas is 4... The RAM sticks they tested were not equal in price.
I say wait, at least untill the CAS goes down. you can buy DDR really cheap now, and since there is almost no difference, why not go cheaper? I never mentioned AMD...
I am aware that DDR2 beat DDR in the benchmarks, but the RAM sticks were not price-matched. I believe they just picked the two most popular RAM sticks. Also, the difference was not enough to justify spending more money on a DDR2 motherboard and RAM. DDR boards are generally cheaper.
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post #48 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by klewiss
Also, the difference was not enough to justify spending more money on a DDR2 motherboard and RAM. DDR boards are generally cheaper.
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.p...minorcatid=105

VS1GB400C3 Corsair Value Select PC3200 1GB DDR400 CL3 184PIN DIMM Memory In Stock $110.48

VS1GB533D2 Corsair Value Select PC2-4200 1GB DDR2 240PIN DIMM Memory In Stock $113.85

Difference? Notice the CL of the DDR is 3 and doubled would be 6. I run my DDR2 ( see above dram) 4-4-4-12 @ 3-3-3-10 easily and this would equate to 2-2-2-6 DDR which is much higher in price than the DDR2. As well, the reason DDR2 boards are more expensive (and not by much) than DDR boards is that the DDR boards are old technology and incorporate much older chipsets.

For $20.00 more one moves from an i865pe chipset to an i945 chipset. There are many features added to the Intel i945 vs. the Intel i865pe. DDR vs. DDR2 via motherboard is not a fair comparison unless the only difference would be the DRAM and this is clearly not the case.

R
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post #49 of 59
Thread Starter 
Here is G.Skill Extreme Series DDR2-533 1GB for $78.50 (4-4-4-12)
http://labs.anandtech.com/alllinks.php?pfilter=2170

Here is G.Skill Extreme Series DDR PC-3200 1GB $78.99 (2.5-3-3-6)
http://labs.anandtech.com/alllinks.php?pfilter=4337

Hmm? Looks like the DDR2 is cheaper. All you have to do is crank up the volts on the DDR2 from 1.8 to 2.5 and it is down to 3-3-3-6, not far off from the 2.5-3-3-6... But it has an advantage, 533Mhz as apposed to 400Mhz.

Ohhh, and here is the same motherboard, one DDR2, the other DDR. I just did a quick search. The DDR2 board is more expensive by $3...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813121246
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813121310

Now tell me something... 65nm (DDR2) does not offer ANY direct performance advantage over 90nm (DDR). So are you willing to pay the extra money for 65nm (DDR2)?
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post #50 of 59
Well, I'm tired of arguing on this matter, as it is going almost nowhere. but I still prefer DDR... I guess it's just a matter of opinion. Just go with what you think is best, but I still strongly suggest you push for 1GB of RAM.
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