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OCZ Vertex 2 - degrades over time? - Page 2

post #11 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post
TRIM cleaning implementation is up to the drive itself. It does not kick in when all blocks are dirty. It is too late by then and performance is already hurting. Most implementations has clean up running whenever the drive is idle for certain period of time.
Well ive been talking with th OCZ staff abou the rumored permanent degradation,and its not true,that lost performance can be recovered


TRIM specially kickcs in when the blocks are dirty.
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post #12 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPaulG87 View Post
This is why I don't see why it even matters, it's nice to have TRIM as well (windows 7 generic drivers have it) but even so...3-4 years down the road, you can restore your SSD to "like-new" speeds, as far as I know, you can't do that with mechanical.
Mechanical drives don't degrade with use at all. All that (can) happen is files become fragmented, slowing the access down. If you benchmark a five-year-old drive now and compare it to a bench when the drive was new you will find they are identical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eduardv View Post
Well ive been talking with th OCZ staff abou the rumored permanent degradation,and its not true,that lost performance can be recovered

TRIM specially kickcs in when the blocks are dirty.
Duckie didn't say the degradation was permanent - he said that performance is already affected when all the blocks are full. That is the point of TRIM - it stops the drive reaching the point when all the blocks are full by erasing blocks when the data in them is deleted.
post #13 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by weidass View Post
AAARgh.

Ok. Depending on the firmware upgrade, you may or may not lose your data. Some updates are 'destructive' some aren't. It will warn you when you download the update.

TRIM kicks in instantly. As soon as you delete something, or empty the recycle bin, the blocks are erased, regardless of if the blocks are full or not. You will notice after you delete a big file, about 5 seconds after its deleted, the HDD light will come on solid for a few seconds (the bigger the file, the longer the light will be on). This is the drive TRIMming itself. This also restores performance to 99.somthing% of new. With TRIM you will never need to secure erase the drive to regain performance.

Yes, from a nand cell life expectancy point of view, it would be better to wait till all the pages in a block are full, but for the sake of performance, the blocks are cleared as soon as the file is deleted. This will only shorten the drive's life by a small amount. Less than 10%. Probably less than 5%.
+1 I Agree
An actual intelligent post!

Basically you either understand how NAND Flash works, or not...

Spinning magnetic hard drives are so simple it makes SSD/NAND flash seem complex...

each flash cell traps electrons, it can only be emptied (erased) of electrons and refilled (written) a limited number of times, so yes over time, any USB Flash drive, or SSD or other flash based medium will "Degrade" over time, as flash cells reach their 10000 write limit, and get marked as unusable...

This sounds terrible of course... but not when you consider that by the time you run out of usable cells, the conventional spinning hard drive would have crashed, long ago..

TRIM, just blanks out flash cells when the File system has "deleted" those blocks, this would also be possible on a magnetic drive, but wouldn't make the drive faster, it would just mean that deletes were slower...

The only reason to clear deleted data is to avoid having to read/erase the block before writing it, since it's already been erased, you can skip to writing it...

Sandforce drives use advanced Firmware and an onboard controller CPU to compress the data before writing to the flash, so they won't use up as much space on the flash, so less of the flash write cycles get used, and the write speed is higher...

As far as degradation over time, yes... probably, but will you notice it or be able to measure it... probably not for 5 or 10 years, unless your drive is always full...
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post #14 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jen View Post
i flashed my vertex 120 gb to 1.5 firmware honestly wish i never did. 2 months later the drive is now dead on my desk and i cant seem to get a rma through with ocz to get it replaced. most likely i will end up buying a intel and throwing this ocz away due to this problem


Jen
That drive can be saved, it will take some work, a few old firmwares and a jumper but you shouldn't throw it away. Ocz has always been good about rmas what seems to be the problem?

and TRIM happens when a file is deleted from the drive permanently.. period. no other times.
Edited by Roxxas049 - 6/12/10 at 8:23pm
post #15 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDreadedGMan View Post
each flash cell traps electrons, it can only be emptied (erased) of electrons and refilled (written) a limited number of times, so yes over time, any USB Flash drive, or SSD or other flash based medium will "Degrade" over time, as flash cells reach their 10000 write limit, and get marked as unusable...

This sounds terrible of course... but not when you consider that by the time you run out of usable cells, the conventional spinning hard drive would have crashed, long ago..
Just to add.... A worn-out NAND cell is still readable even if it is no longer writable. That means even though NAND cells wear out, your data is still safe.
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post #16 of 45
1. You probably won't write that much
2. With TRIM enable, even if there's degrading, it's minimal and takes LONG time to affect your daily operation
3.Like DuckieHo said, even you somehow worn down the SSD with insane writes, you can still read, just no write. So the potential risk of losing data is close to zero.
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post #17 of 45
Alright... here we go:

so lets say you had one of those 100GB products linked in the OP

lets say that each cell could write 10,000 times

so that means roughly you could write 10,000 x 100GB to it, which is: 1,000,000GB
Yes, you would need to write 1 million gigabytes onto it...

Of course since it's a Sandforce, it compresses the data, so lets just assume the compression wasn't very effective, and it only compressed like 80%... or your data was quite random... that means at 80% writes we're up to 1.25 Million Gigabytes...

lets say you wrote 10GB per day... I know I don't lol, but lets say... so 10GB per day.. that's 125,000 days, or 342 years...

So I don't think endurance of MLC is really a problem... in fact the components on the PCB would probably die of old age before you ran out of write cycles...
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post #18 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDreadedGMan View Post
Alright... here we go:

so lets say you had one of those 100GB products linked in the OP

lets say that each cell could write 10,000 times

so that means roughly you could write 10,000 x 100GB to it, which is: 1,000,000GB
Yes, you would need to write 1 million gigabytes onto it...

Of course since it's a Sandforce, it compresses the data, so lets just assume the compression wasn't very effective, and it only compressed like 80%... or your data was quite random... that means at 80% writes we're up to 1.25 Million Gigabytes...

lets say you wrote 10GB per day... I know I don't lol, but lets say... so 10GB per day.. that's 125,000 days, or 342 years...

So I don't think endurance of MLC is really a problem... in fact the components on the PCB would probably die of old age before you ran out of write cycles...

...don't forget about write amplification!
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post #19 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roxxas049 View Post
That drive can be saved, it will take some work, a few old firmwares and a jumper but you shouldn't throw it away. Ocz has always been good about rmas what seems to be the problem?

and TRIM happens when a file is deleted from the drive permanently.. period. no other times.
tried firmware 1.10 which didnt see the drive , next step is rma but that seems to not be going well. i have answered questions best i could yet still being asked same questions again. just tired of all this never had this kind of problems before with them

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post #20 of 45
Go to the OCZtechnology ssd forums, register and then send a pm to Tony or Riderocz, tell them you're having trouble with an rma and see what they can do for you..
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