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[Official] Starcraft 2 Strategy & Discussion Thread - Page 102

post #1011 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
First off, never listen to idrA. When have you ever see him actually use his brain for anything beyond macro? He himself admits he is too stubborn to do things to win at times. TLO is a top player and he's been saying for ages that TvZ is fine... in fact he will pick Z vs T's a lot of the times to prove his point ( even in big tournaments ). Top players can say what they like but the fact is, until they switch over and show how much easier it is with Terran there words are pretty meaningless. You think Morrow won vs idrA because Terran is OP? Don't think so. Artosis himself says Morrows terran is just plain sick, and idrA hadn't had the most practice vs that build ( reapers ). Diamaga also TRAINED morrow exactly how to use that reaper build to beat idrA. Not only that, but idrA played like crap, and Diamaga himself played much better vs morrow.

If you look at a lot of the tournament results as whole, its a pretty even mixture of winnings. You got Huk winning tournaments with Toss over here, you got idrA winning some tournaments, White-Ra winning some tournaments, Tester winning a whole bunch of tournaments. It's not like Terran is the only one winning, or even winning THAT much more than others. Maybe if Z's didn't whine and complain so much they would have more players to show how good Zerg is. Sorry if you have 180,000 T players, 190,000 P players, and 100,000 Z players obviously there will be more T and P players dominating.

Now, I'm not saying the game IS balanced, I'm saying it's not so badly balanced that its as big of a deal as others make it out to be, especially Platinum players and below. They need to just keep practicing before they let some excuse like balance prevent them from getting better.

And I did see plenty of tournament matches with Ultras, that's for sure.
If it really bothers you to say that TvZ is imbalanced, i'll say it in a different way then: It is much more difficult to play the zerg race rather than the terran race, even for those who are already experienced with the game. Happy?
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/693082

Top 20:

9 Protoss
8 Terran
3 Zerg

Total:

92 Terran
63 Protoss
38 Zerg
7 Random

These get updated weekly, so you won't have to worry about it being outdated. This pretty much shows you what the balance issue is like atm.

And as much as I dislike idra as a player, I think you're underestimating his skill level. To say that he can't do anything other than macro makes you look pretty stupid, no offense.

As for TLO, he originally started out as a random player, so he already had the basic knowledge of all the races. He switched to terran months ago... I'm not sure where you're getting your sources from but he is strictly a terran player (hmm i wonder why). Morrow beat Idra because he abused the imbalance like no other. Idra had his flaws in that game as well, but that just shows how there's so little room for mistakes in a zerg player to have a chance against a terran player.

And as for tournaments, the majority of the qualifiers are terrans, just look at the upcoming GSL tournament.
Quote:
Sorry if you have 180,000 T players, 190,000 P players, and 100,000 Z players obviously there will be more T and P players dominating.
and that's exactly my point, people are more inclined to play terran because of the balance issues.
Edited by hkfosho - 9/1/10 at 3:42am
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post #1012 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dom_sufc View Post
I just watched an awesome game.
That was a good one.
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post #1013 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkfosho View Post
If it really bothers you to say that TvZ is imbalanced, i'll say it in a different way then: It is much more difficult to play the zerg race rather than the terran race, even for those who are already experienced with the game. Happy?
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/693082

Top 20:

9 Protoss
8 Terran
3 Zerg

Total:

92 Terran
63 Protoss
38 Zerg
7 Random

These get updated weekly, so you won't have to worry about it being outdated. This pretty much shows you what the balance issue is like atm.

And as much as I dislike idra as a player, I think you're underestimating his skill level. To say that he can't do anything other than macro makes you look pretty stupid, no offense.

As for TLO, he originally started out as a random player, so he already had the basic knowledge of all the races. He switched to terran months ago... I'm not sure where you're getting your sources from but he is strictly a terran player (hmm i wonder why). Morrow beat Idra because he abused the imbalance like no other. Idra had his flaws in that game as well, but that just shows how there's so little room for mistakes in a zerg player to have a chance against a terran player.

And as for tournaments, the majority of the qualifiers are terrans, just look at the upcoming GSL tournament.


and that's exactly my point, people are more inclined to play terran because of the balance issues.
OK it's nice to see you using data with out telling the entire story. What did I say ? I said there are literally almost 2x the amount of Terran players and Protoss players than Zerg. So if you double the amount of Zerg players those top 200 statistics get much much closer. You also don't mention that if you look at statistics as a whole that there are actually more Z players in Diamond than Terran per player. ( Search stats on TL.net ).

Your comments on my comments on idrA again, is you not actually looking at what I said. I don't question idrA's skill even remotely, but he certainly is one of the least creative players around. Watch his games, tell me how often he takes advantage of overlord drops, nydus worms, ect. Very very very rarely. In fact I can probably link you to the last time he dropped someone in beta ( and it worked I might add ). I'm also telling you what he says about himself, that is loses / his biggest weakness is his stubbornness. It's apparent that he wants to play one way, and make that work at all costs. I have no doubts that he could be an even BETTER player if he would get over his stubbornness. I never ever said he can't do anything but macro....

Your comment on TLO, is partly true. Yes he plays Terran now, I know this, I said this. I'm telling you that he's picked ZvT in tournaments and high level games to prove his point. He even challenged players publically on teamliquid to show the power of Z.

If you think Morrow doesn't deserve that win, I don't know what to tell you. You apparently know everything and you know much more than the high level players that do think he deserved it and have mucho respect for him.



We can argue paper craft all day if you'd like. I played Terran when they were considered AWFUL in the beginning of beta, and you didn't hear any complaints from me. I just kept on trucking, and let new strats develop. It's still too early to tell. Remember in SC1 when Terran was considered the worst for years? Then boxer comes along and re-invents the game. SCII will not be any different.

We'll see what happens in the next patch. I'm not really against it or for it...
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post #1014 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
That was a good one.
I couldn't believe the amount of multi-tasking. I've seen some great games on those Channels, but having both players using all the expos AND fighting on multiple fronts... Brilliant.

Can't help but think that the Terran player should have done a tech switch. I'm not really qualified enough to make those statements, though.
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post #1015 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkfosho View Post
If it really bothers you to say that TvZ is imbalanced, i'll say it in a different way then: It is much more difficult to play the zerg race rather than the terran race, even for those who are already experienced with the game. Happy?
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/693082

Top 20:

9 Protoss
8 Terran
3 Zerg

Total:

92 Terran
63 Protoss
38 Zerg
7 Random

These get updated weekly, so you won't have to worry about it being outdated. This pretty much shows you what the balance issue is like atm.

And as much as I dislike idra as a player, I think you're underestimating his skill level. To say that he can't do anything other than macro makes you look pretty stupid, no offense.

As for TLO, he originally started out as a random player, so he already had the basic knowledge of all the races. He switched to terran months ago... I'm not sure where you're getting your sources from but he is strictly a terran player (hmm i wonder why). Morrow beat Idra because he abused the imbalance like no other. Idra had his flaws in that game as well, but that just shows how there's so little room for mistakes in a zerg player to have a chance against a terran player.

And as for tournaments, the majority of the qualifiers are terrans, just look at the upcoming GSL tournament.


and that's exactly my point, people are more inclined to play terran because of the balance issues.
The top 200 doesn't prove that Terran is overpowered. Why can't these Terran players just be better players?

Idra is godly but he has his flaws. He can be very stubborn with his build and unit composition but I think he's been improving on that.

TLO is not solely a Terran player. I have seen him play Zerg quite a few times in series matches if his opponents lets him. Also, TLO chose to play Terran way before all this overpower talk. He switch to Terran right after the HDH Tournament. I think this when Zerg was the race to be with the big hydra plays.

I think the reason for the majority of players being Terran is because its supposed to be the "easy" race to learn. When I showed my friend Zerg, he was there's no way I track of that. I think this would be the mindset for most new players when they see Zerg.

I don't think TvZ is that bad players would switch races but what do I know, I'm just a toss player. Just glad to be out of all the void ray "overpower" talk. I'm just a happy camper until the next patch comes out. The zealot nerf is going to be quite annoying. Might end up saying Terran is op too haha!
post #1016 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
OK it's nice to see you using data with out telling the entire story. What did I say ? I said there are literally almost 2x the amount of Terran players and Protoss players than Zerg. So if you double the amount of Zerg players those top 200 statistics get much much closer. You also don't mention that if you look at statistics as a whole that there are actually more Z players in Diamond than Terran per player. ( Search stats on TL.net ).

Your comments on my comments on idrA again, is you not actually looking at what I said. I don't question idrA's skill even remotely, but he certainly is one of the least creative players around. Watch his games, tell me how often he takes advantage of overlord drops, nydus worms, ect. Very very very rarely. In fact I can probably link you to the last time he dropped someone in beta ( and it worked I might add ). I'm also telling you what he says about himself, that is loses / his biggest weakness is his stubbornness. It's apparent that he wants to play one way, and make that work at all costs. I have no doubts that he could be an even BETTER player if he would get over his stubbornness. I never ever said he can't do anything but macro....

Your comment on TLO, is partly true. Yes he plays Terran now, I know this, I said this. I'm telling you that he's picked ZvT in tournaments and high level games to prove his point. He even challenged players publically on teamliquid to show the power of Z.

If you think Morrow doesn't deserve that win, I don't know what to tell you. You apparently know everything and you know much more than the high level players that do think he deserved it and have mucho respect for him.



We can argue paper craft all day if you'd like. I played Terran when they were considered AWFUL in the beginning of beta, and you didn't hear any complaints from me. I just kept on trucking, and let new strats develop. It's still too early to tell. Remember in SC1 when Terran was considered the worst for years? Then boxer comes along and re-invents the game. SCII will not be any different.

We'll see what happens in the next patch. I'm not really against it or for it...
I'll take your word for it that there are more zerg players than terran players in the diamond league, but the true balance of a game is shown by the best players. There are tons of players in diamond that aren't even that good, many of them cheesing their way through plat. And once again, the reason why there are twice as many terran and protoss players as zerg is because zerg is the harder race to play and adjust to in the current shape of balance, thus ppl are less comfortable with choosing zerg as their race (this is the point I'm trying to make).

It may seem really easy for you to just shout out possible strats for zergs against terrans, but it really isn't... trust me. a nydus can be easily stopped by any decent terran who spread their depots/buildings on the edges. Overlord drops are viable, but the amount of resources and time needed for it makes it an unlikable choice, not to mention that it is fairly easy to defend against as a lot of terrans tend to build sensor towers in mid/late-game TvZ.

TLO played zerg temporarily, but that argument isn't really helping anything because he wasn't very successful as a zerg player.

As for morrow, I'm not the only one saying that it was the imbalance issue that favored him to win. There are numerous TLers who agree that his style of play that game was pretty abusive (5rax reaper... like really?) and even after idra scouted it with his overlord, he still got stomped over because rauders simply demolish roaches.

Yeah, boxer did bring up a lot of new aspects for terran, but how long ago was that? With the attention that blizzard is getting today, and with the amount of player-base that SC2 has, you can only wait so long until you realize that something's wrong with the balance issue, rather than thinking that the players are not creative enough. Even the players from Korea are commenting on the balance issues, saying that terran is the strongest race atm.

You can call it paper craft, i dont care. This is an RTS game, and luck is part of the game. If I happened to go with the PERFECT strategy counter blindly, such as going 6 pool lings without knowing that the opponent FE'd, of course I'm going to win... it's just like rock paper scissors. But if i draw paper and the opponent draws rock, and I still can't win, well then we've got some problems .
Edited by hkfosho - 9/1/10 at 5:05am
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post #1017 of 25319
Zerg is the most unique out of the bunch, but I wouldn't say hardest. They were probably my best race naturally personally. I can understand why people are hesitant to play them because of how different they are than Terran and Protoss, but I really don't believe they are even remotely bad. As time goes on I think that things will even out and Zerg will become more popular. I'm guessing during heart of the swarm TBH.

TLO still plays Zerg, and he can still be competitive with them. He picks his race on whats best suited for him ( him saying that ). The entire reason he stopped playing random was because his Protoss was awful. I'm not saying he is going to pick Zerg all the time, because if he feels T is best for him then there is no reason for him to pick Z anymore beyond proving his point ( That TvZ is balanced ).

Again, I'm not claiming it's balanced or its imbalanced, I just think it's too soon to tell.

I never said Nydus worms and overlords will always do the trick, but I've watched plenty of games that idrA has lost that they would have worked. He doesn't use all the tools in his belt when sometimes some of the tools are perfect for the job. He an amazing player, but far from his true potential. Why don't you go back and look at some of his games and look for weak points instead of just giving him a free pass because he is a top player. I can promise you you'll find many holes.

Your comments about Diamond players who don't belong there can be said about any of the races really. Some people do nothing but cheese and make it into Diamond, regardless of race. I actually have two accounts and I play random ( but mainly Zerg ) on my second account. It doesn't matter what race I'm playing I'd be in Diamond, and I've never felt any huge advantage with any of the races over the others.

And why are we even arguing? The game is changed in a few weeks.
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post #1018 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkfosho View Post

As for morrow, I'm not the only one saying that it was the imbalance issue that favored him to win. There are numerous TLers who agree that his style of play that game was pretty abusive (5rax reaper... like really?) and even after idra scouted it with his overlord, he still got stomped over because rauders simply demolish roaches.
Can you link me to that Replay? Is it on YT?
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post #1019 of 25319
1440P Extreme.
(17 items)
 
Now the wifes PC.
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I7 3930K @ 4.4ghz Asus Rampage IV Extreme 2011 EVGA GTX 980 Ti 6GB FTW EVGA GTX 980 Ti 6GB FTW 
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G,skill Ripjaw Z series 2400 32gb Samsung 840 Pro Seagate 3TB 7200 RPM  Western Digital mainstream 3TB  
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Samsung 840 Pro LG Bluray Burner Noctua NH-D14 SE2011 Windows 10 x64 
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Monoprice 27" 2560x1440 IPS LED Razer Black Widow Tournament Edition Corsair RM1000 CoolerMaster Storm Trooper 
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EVGA SLI Bridge 
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Intel I7 870 @ 3.6 ghz ASUS P7P55D-E Pro EVGA 680 GTX 4gb EVGA 680 GTX 4gb 
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G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 16GB (4x 4GB) DDR3 Samsung 830 128 GB SSD, WD 2TB 7200 RPM LG Black 10X Blu-ray Burner Windows 7 64 bit 
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1440P Extreme.
(17 items)
 
Now the wifes PC.
(14 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
I7 3930K @ 4.4ghz Asus Rampage IV Extreme 2011 EVGA GTX 980 Ti 6GB FTW EVGA GTX 980 Ti 6GB FTW 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
G,skill Ripjaw Z series 2400 32gb Samsung 840 Pro Seagate 3TB 7200 RPM  Western Digital mainstream 3TB  
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Samsung 840 Pro LG Bluray Burner Noctua NH-D14 SE2011 Windows 10 x64 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Monoprice 27" 2560x1440 IPS LED Razer Black Widow Tournament Edition Corsair RM1000 CoolerMaster Storm Trooper 
Other
EVGA SLI Bridge 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel I7 870 @ 3.6 ghz ASUS P7P55D-E Pro EVGA 680 GTX 4gb EVGA 680 GTX 4gb 
RAMHard DriveOptical DriveOS
G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 16GB (4x 4GB) DDR3 Samsung 830 128 GB SSD, WD 2TB 7200 RPM LG Black 10X Blu-ray Burner Windows 7 64 bit 
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Acer G24, 24" 1920x1200 Razer Blackwidow Ultimate Antec TruePower 750 COOLER MASTER Storm Scout 
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post #1020 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
Zerg is the most unique out of the bunch, but I wouldn't say hardest. They were probably my best race naturally personally. I can understand why people are hesitant to play them because of how different they are than Terran and Protoss, but I really don't believe they are even remotely bad. As time goes on I think that things will even out and Zerg will become more popular. I'm guessing during heart of the swarm TBH.

TLO still plays Zerg, and he can still be competitive with them. He picks his race on whats best suited for him ( him saying that ). The entire reason he stopped playing random was because his Protoss was awful. I'm not saying he is going to pick Zerg all the time, because if he feels T is best for him then there is no reason for him to pick Z anymore beyond proving his point ( That TvZ is balanced ).

Again, I'm not claiming it's balanced or its imbalanced, I just think it's too soon to tell.

I never said Nydus worms and overlords will always do the trick, but I've watched plenty of games that idrA has lost that they would have worked. He doesn't use all the tools in his belt when sometimes some of the tools are perfect for the job. He an amazing player, but far from his true potential. Why don't you go back and look at some of his games and look for weak points instead of just giving him a free pass because he is a top player. I can promise you you'll find many holes.

Your comments about Diamond players who don't belong there can be said about any of the races really. Some people do nothing but cheese and make it into Diamond, regardless of race. I actually have two accounts and I play random ( but mainly Zerg ) on my second account. It doesn't matter what race I'm playing I'd be in Diamond, and I've never felt any huge advantage with any of the races over the others.

And why are we even arguing? The game is changed in a few weeks.
Don't take argument like it's a bad thing, this IS just a game at the end of the day and it helps us understand our own opinion. But I feel for those who play in higher competitive matches, losing due to balance issues while their sponsors and income is at stake. You know something's up with the balance when complaints about terran are not just from a specific league/division of players, but even the best players.

I doubt I'll be able to change your mind regarding terran being the stronger race, but that's the way things go with these things. Most sc gamers perceive their own races in a different way when it comes to the balance issues.

And for the record, I don't think think idra is the best player in the world, let alone the best zerg player; that title would have to go to cool.
DELL XPS 9000
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i7-920 2.66GHZ DELL X58 NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 260 AT 1.8GB 9GB DDR3 SDRAM AT 1066MHZ 
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1TB SERIAL ATA 2, 7200 RPM ROXIO 10.3, EASY CD & DVD WIN 7 HOME PREM, 64 SAMSUNG SYNCMASTER 23" WIDESCREEN LCD (P2370) 
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DELL XPS 9000
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-920 2.66GHZ DELL X58 NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 260 AT 1.8GB 9GB DDR3 SDRAM AT 1066MHZ 
Hard DriveOptical DriveOSMonitor
1TB SERIAL ATA 2, 7200 RPM ROXIO 10.3, EASY CD & DVD WIN 7 HOME PREM, 64 SAMSUNG SYNCMASTER 23" WIDESCREEN LCD (P2370) 
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ELITE PINK FILCO BLUE CHERRY MX SWITCHES DELL CERTIFIED 475W PSU LOGITECH MX518 
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