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post #1081 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by thiru View Post
Hey I'm trying out zerg for fun. This is a custom game against a terran (silver but main race is zerg, I'm protoss silver myself).

Can you guys tell me what's terribly wrong with what I've done (probably did every wrong thing in the book, so just stick to the really bad stuff).

I know that I had way too much money because I wasn't using queens and hatcheries enough, and don't bother telling me stuff that applies to other races (like I didn't get workers on gas at times).

Thanks!

edit: this was an easy game, probably because the other player was trying terran, but in a real game I'm expecting to have a lot of trouble deciding between making drones and units at the hatchery, as well as deciding to expand early or not.

Also, any good zerg replays are appreciated! (don't play against many zerg..)
OK I know you said don't mention things, but I must yell at you for them.


1) You got gas early, yet you didn't spend it until you had over 200? What was the point of early gas then?

2) For Zerg a pretty standard opener is 14 pool, 15 hatch. You were also late building your pool by 30 minerals.

3) Spawn Larva was very off most of the time. You need to watch that ( listen for them to pop out if you are near your base ).

4) Money, jeeze man.... your macro is AWFUL. I don't really buy that its just your Zerg macro lacking either. You should never have over 500 minerals sitting in the bank, much less 5000!! Spend it on hatcheries, upgades, units, whatever you can! Throw down some expans, some evo chambers, tech, ect.

5) Your scouting is beyond awful. You NEED to scout, sooo bad. You can't just hope and pray you're building the right units, and seeing what he has gives you an idea of how much to dedicate to building your econ, your army, and or expanding. Keep an overlord near, or an overseer and use changelings.

6) Speaking of spending and scouting, if that was me playing I would have had every spot on the map expanded to by 20 minutes if I saw such a passive Terran. If you play Zerg passively against a good Terran who is playing passively you are going to lose everytime.

7) If you are going far enough to get roaches, and burrow, why don't you have roach burrow movement? Not only does it kick major but for being able to move while burrowed, but the healing they get from it is amazing.

8) After you hit him with your roach army, you got a bunch of mutalisks. At that point you literally won the game. He had nothing to stop you. Vikings suck vs muta's, and marines are bad vs muta in small numbers. Don't be so passive, take action when you see weakness.

9) You could have been much more aggressive with your creep tumors. Spreading creep is very important.

10) On Steps of War specifically, you should destroy the rocks near your natural much quicker. No reason not to, and then you can take that expansion faster.

11) Quite overboard on the banelings. You would have been much better off having half banes, half speedlings. You don't get banelings back once they explode.

12 ) That overlord I told you to keep near, that could work wonders later for making a Nydus worm as well.


Hope that helps.
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post #1082 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by thiru View Post
It's cheese, not cheesy. A cheese is a "all in" tactic, it either works or fails and puts you at such a disadvantage that you lose the game. Examples are cannon rushes or very 6-pool zergling rush (happened to me today, failed and I wiped him out because he couldn't make any other unit than zerglings).
Cheese != all-in. Cheese is a high risk/high reward strategy that relies on surprise and is set to win the game early, e.g. 6pool, proxy gate/rax, cannon rush, proxy hatch etc. Cheese, when scouted, is usually an auto-loose, so you don't see it that much in high levels of play. It's just too much of a gamble.

All-in is a strategy that sacrifices economy for sake of creating powerful army fast. E.g. 4gate, 5 rax, 1base roaches etc. An all-in can be scouted and it's still hard to deal with. However if defended it gives the opponent economical/tech advantage.
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post #1083 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
OK I know you said don't mention things, but I must yell at you for them.

1) You got gas early, yet you didn't spend it until you had over 200? What was the point of early gas then?

2) For Zerg a pretty standard opener is 14 pool, 15 hatch. You were also late building your pool by 30 minerals.

3) Spawn Larva was very off most of the time. You need to watch that ( listen for them to pop out if you are near your base ).

4) Money, jeeze man.... your macro is AWFUL. I don't really buy that its just your Zerg macro lacking either. You should never have over 500 minerals sitting in the bank, much less 5000!! Spend it on hatcheries, upgades, units, whatever you can! Throw down some expans, some evo chambers, tech, ect.

5) Your scouting is beyond awful. You NEED to scout, sooo bad. You can't just hope and pray you're building the right units, and seeing what he has gives you an idea of how much to dedicate to building your econ, your army, and or expanding. Keep an overlord near, or an overseer and use changelings.

6) Speaking of spending and scouting, if that was me playing I would have had every spot on the map expanded to by 20 minutes if I saw such a passive Terran. If you play Zerg passively against a good Terran who is playing passively you are going to lose everytime.

7) If you are going far enough to get roaches, and burrow, why don't you have roach burrow movement? Not only does it kick major but for being able to move while burrowed, but the healing they get from it is amazing.

8) After you hit him with your roach army, you got a bunch of mutalisks. At that point you literally won the game. He had nothing to stop you. Vikings suck vs muta's, and marines are bad vs muta in small numbers. Don't be so passive, take action when you see weakness.

9) You could have been much more aggressive with your creep tumors. Spreading creep is very important.

10) On Steps of War specifically, you should destroy the rocks near your natural much quicker. No reason not to, and then you can take that expansion faster.

11) Quite overboard on the banelings. You would have been much better off having half banes, half speedlings. You don't get banelings back once they explode.

12 ) That overlord I told you to keep near, that could work wonders later for making a Nydus worm as well.


Hope that helps.
lol I admit I've never had anywhere near so much money in a game before, this is like the 5th time I play zerg, I had no idea how to spend my money. When I play something other than protoss I get retarded even when it comes to simple/common mechanics like spending all your money or making workers, which is why I said not to mention it. The last time I played terran (practice thankfully) I forgot to make SCVs for 5 minutes at early-mid game.

I'm not sure how to scout with zerg, I don't know changelings work, they always get shot at as soon as an enemy unit sees them so what's the point?
As for overlords I was afraid of losing them, but I guess it should be ok until he gets Vikings (at which point I could have used my mutas).

I'll spread the creep thing. Do zerg get a health regen bonus on it?
Guess I'll expand faster next time. And yeah I'll keep nydus canal in mind, worked wonders the first time I played zerg.
As for my passivity, with zerg I can never tell how big my army is or how effective. I'd think my army was ok and then it'd get wiped out in 2 seconds.

Banelings, I love them, it's just so fun watching them blow stuff up so I just made them whenever I could (but yeah I'll do less next time).
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post #1084 of 25319
How do you Z players set your control groups? TLO has his infestors on a separate control group, which I like. I also like having anti-air units on one group so I can focus their firepower where I want. I'm a little conflicted on how to handle some of the other things. Queens are an important defensive unit early and they frequently need to be microed then, so they seem to need their own CG then, but later on they're mainly just camped out by the hatchery spawning larvae and doing occasional transfusions. Also the scouting units seem to need their own CG in the early going, but not so much later. Is it advisable to have separate early/late control schemes?
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post #1085 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucas Lamer View Post
How do you Z players set your control groups? TLO has his infestors on a separate control group, which I like. I also like having anti-air units on one group so I can focus their firepower where I want. I'm a little conflicted on how to handle some of the other things. Queens are an important defensive unit early and they frequently need to be microed then, so they seem to need their own CG then, but later on they're mainly just camped out by the hatchery spawning larvae and doing occasional transfusions. Also the scouting units seem to need their own CG in the early going, but not so much later. Is it advisable to have separate early/late control schemes?
Well as you can tell by the above posts that I'm not pro at zerg, but with any race I put pure casters like HT in a separate group so that they don't just go walk into death. Same should apply to infestors.

Since queens are so essential for their larva spell, put them in a group and click V, hold right-shift and press backspace (this focuses on each hatchery) then click on the hatchery (repeat backspace then click for other hatcheries, still holding shift). Again I'm no good at zerg but let me tell you this is so much faster to do.

Might as well get a CG for the first worker scout, it's not like you've got any other units at the time.

edit@porobosz: I didn't know that was the specific definition for all-in. I said all-in like where you bet everything you have without knowing how much of a chance you stand and no way of coming back.
Edited by thiru - 9/2/10 at 6:04am
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post #1086 of 25319
My Zerg set up :

Main base hatch 5, Natural hatch 6, 3rd 7, 4th 8 ect. To spawn larva I just hit 55, 66, 77, ect.

4 is always ALL my hatches. This way if I need to macro while attacking I can just hit 4 then build at all of them.

Army : Depends on units but generally : 1 lings, 2 muta

or 1 roach + infestors, 2 just infestors

I average over 100 APM for Zerg so this setup works great for me.

Roughly 30 APM higher than my Terran ( 70's ). My toss is 80-90.
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post #1087 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
My Zerg set up :

Main base hatch 5, Natural hatch 6, 3rd 7, 4th 8 ect. To spawn larva I just hit 55, 66, 77, ect.

4 is always ALL my hatches. This way if I need to macro while attacking I can just hit 4 then build at all of them.

Army : Depends on units but generally : 1 lings, 2 muta

or 1 roach + infestors, 2 just infestors

I average over 100 APM for Zerg so this setup works great for me.
Double clicking 55 selects larva (if 5 is hatchery)?
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post #1088 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by thiru View Post
Double clicking 55 selects larva (if 5 is hatchery)?
55 click queen v. I know your way is the fastest but you have to re-adjust your hands so I don't really like it much. Doesn't take long my way either. I just played a bunch of 2v2's as Zerg a few min ago .
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post #1089 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
55 click queen v. I know your way is the fastest but you have to re-adjust your hands so I don't really like it much. Doesn't take long my way either. I just played a bunch of 2v2's as Zerg a few min ago .
Ah, I thought you meant 55 directly selected larva to make units. Well in your case even faster would be to have a group just for queen. Put them in say 5, then 66,5,V,click, then 77,5,V,click etc.

I wish you could save locations with F1-F12 like in Starcraft 2 would do wonders for warping in units with protoss. Guess I'll have to put pylons into a CG.
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post #1090 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
55 click queen v.
That's how I've been doing it too. I'm not convinced it's the best method. I keep seeing different ideas on how to handle the queens and I want to try them all before I settle on one.
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