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[Official] Starcraft 2 Strategy & Discussion Thread - Page 1308

post #13071 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by yks View Post
Idra is complaining that he can't scout cause lings die to marines and overlords die to marines. So he's forced to play a build that can defend against anything just to come out even in the early game.

But that's Idra, who complains about everything. He could have a 100% win-rate and still complain.

You don't see Protoss players complaining about going Observers just for scouting. Observers which, by the way, locks a tech path for the beginning stages of the game.


Did you listen to what Idra said? He said there is no conceivable zerg build that can defend against every early attack. He is exactly right about that. If zerg can't defend against everything then zerg needs scouting information to narrow the possibilities. But zerg can't get a sloverlord past the patrolling marines. So zerg has to guess and trust to luck. That's poor game design. This is supposed to be a game of skill, not luck.
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post #13072 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by yks View Post
I agree that as Pros, their view of the game's balance outweigh any of ours. But Idra is just one Pro, amongst the hundreds, who seems to try to create issues where there aren't any, or if there are issues, tries to blow them out of proportion.

Because if he was entirely correct, all Pros would agree; Blizzard would agree and try to fix said issue.

People just have a gigantic bandwagon syndrome and blame the current flavor of the month. It's like what Tommy Lee Jones said in Men In Black: A person is smart; People are dumb.
Actually Idra has said the pro zergs he's talked to are also annoyed with the game balance. How could they not be? Maybe these guys are just not as confrontational as Idra and are content to let him be the villian who does the dirty work of complaining about stuff that needs to be complained about. Not everybody has the stomach to get into a full-blown *****fest with other pro gamers. Idra does.
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post #13073 of 25319
Yeah? Guess what Lucas, there's NO BUILD IN THE WORLD that can defend against every early attack for ANY race.
post #13074 of 25319
As a novice Zerg player, I have to agree that I feel at a major disadvantage in the early game. It's very easy for Terran or Protoss to cheese me with bunkers or cannons or early Marines. I'll just be doing a standard 14 pool and BAM two marines in my base while my zerglings are still eggs, and suddenly I've lost three workers or have to pull them off mining. I almost have to make a 10 pool my standard or I get wiped out inside of five minutes.

In comparison, Zerg has no cheese, except maybe the 6 pool, and that never works because T and P always wall. Zerg can only cheese other Zerg, with 6 pool plus two spine crawlers, and that's very risky.



I still like Zerg because they're great for macro, but they really need something more in the early game. Maybe let overlords spawn creep without a lair so it's easier to defend with spine crawlers, or buff un-upgraded zerglings a little so two zerglings = one marine, instead of three zerglings = one marine.
post #13075 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowtoblerone View Post
Wow did you guys just see what anypro's phoenix just did?
That was mind blowing. Phoenix play is so awesome.
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post #13076 of 25319
No race has a free scout. It's going to cost you around 200 minerals and time in order to scout, regardless of race.

Scan is 270 minerals and misses what you want to see most of the time. Hallucination is 100min/100gas and 100 energy (expensive), but is probably the strongest scout, how many times have you seen a hallucinated phoenix get shot down in a pro game? Very rarely. 2 (200 minerals) Overlords floating in at the same time while lings poke at the ramp (50 minerals if you lose 2) will usually give you a good indication of what your opponent is doing. These can all be done around the 6 minute mark, when your opponent is settling in to what build he's doing, or he's about to cheese you. Seems fair to me.

I think Idra likes to whine and complain and then win tournaments because it makes him feel special. He plays the hardest race you know, so if he wins it's obvious that he's just better than everyone else in the world.
Edited by KittensMewMew - 5/5/11 at 11:31am
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post #13077 of 25319
I would say the fact that Zerg has poor scouting and still does as well as it does shows how the races mechanics / units are sick good to make up for lack of scouting.

Like I could hide some crazy all-in with all my millions of tech paths and STILL lose to a Zerg because Zerg will generally be able to hold it off. I've hid BC tech before many times and Zerg was able to hold it off no problem.

So bad scouting for Zerg is irrelevant because the race is still good enough to deal with it w/ out it. Maybe if they could scout the match up like TvZ would look more like 35-65% in favor of Zerg. Right now its like almost even, slight Terran favored at pro-level, now imagine if Zergs didn't lose to these hidden tech / all ins and all of a sudden the game is broken in Zergs favor. I'm worried this advantage of hidden tech / all ins is masking in imbalance in the other direction.

Ladder too which has been around 50% forever.
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post #13078 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus2129 View Post
As a novice Zerg player, I have to agree that I feel at a major disadvantage in the early game. It's very easy for Terran or Protoss to cheese me with bunkers or cannons or early Marines. I'll just be doing a standard 14 pool and BAM two marines in my base while my zerglings are still eggs, and suddenly I've lost three workers or have to pull them off mining. I almost have to make a 10 pool my standard or I get wiped out inside of five minutes.

In comparison, Zerg has no cheese, except maybe the 6 pool, and that never works because T and P always wall. Zerg can only cheese other Zerg, with 6 pool plus two spine crawlers, and that's very risky.



I still like Zerg because they're great for macro, but they really need something more in the early game. Maybe let overlords spawn creep without a lair so it's easier to defend with spine crawlers, or buff un-upgraded zerglings a little so two zerglings = one marine, instead of three zerglings = one marine.
Wow I should have done the deal you have in your sig. Anyways, I am by no means a very high-level player but I am a high plat-diamond so I'd be more than wiling to help you thanks to all the PSU advice you've given me.
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post #13079 of 25319
hot damn, 10 months since the release and we still talk about balance.
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post #13080 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhed5 View Post
hot damn, 10 months since the release and we still talk about balance.
What? You vastly underestimate the complexity of SC. Balance changes are still being made to the original game and it's 15 years old.

10 months? Lol...

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