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post #13791 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowtoblerone View Post
I have that button bound to `. Check hotkeys.


We really can't talk about the GSL or high level play in terms of balance. People like IMMVP can be knocked down by toss, or they can beat toss. In those kinds of competition it's usually one player out playing and out classing, instead of showing imbalances of each unit, mechanic, or path.

Regarding upgrades: Terran can usually have the safeness to be able to start upgrades faster than toss. Terran going on two rax can fe faster than three gate nexus. On maps with small chokes sentries allow three gate army to push out and secure Terran natural and try to delay terran expo (and therefore upgrades) before toss has their natural up. Other than that terran can usually get their upgrades before toss does.

Even if toss double forge, one scan will tell the terran to get double engie. Chrono allows toss to catch up on upgrades late game. However a toss on two base cannot support constant upgrades on two forge with constant unit production out of five gate and robo.

Another example would be naniwa vs thorzane when thor went tank marine marauder. Thor was able to get an expo and upgrades before naniwa in the first game, while naniwa canceled both forge upgrades just to get out more units so he didn't die right away in the subsequent games later.



LOL I never said PvT is imba. It's my favourite match up.
No matter what I think Protoss should be upgrades at the same rate as Terran period. Terran should not be beating Protoss to upgrades IMO. As far as expanding goes, I think they can safely expand at the same rate too. I don't think it's anymore or less risky as either race, though I do think having in base 2nd base benifits Protoss more than Terran ( like Delta, or Jungle Basin, ect ).

I hate maps where I can't possibly punish a Protoss expansion because they are protected by the same ramp .

I'm actually kind of surprised you think Terran has an advantage in the upgrade game ( even early ). You don't even need double forge, you can just do armor if need be and its still super effective vs bio at least. Even yks tells me how good fast armor is against Terran.
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post #13792 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowtoblerone View Post
I have that button bound to `. Check hotkeys.
it's called center on current selection right?
post #13793 of 25319
It's called follow current selection.

Doom, I don't understand; You didn't give a counter argument. If you're talking about maps like Delta, let's look at the facts:

- Terran can two rax fe into outside natural but Toss cannot three gate fe into outside natural without dying.

- Toss can three gate or two gate robo into inside natural but slower than Terran gets out his natural

Both scenarios means Terran has a better army, start upgrades faster than the toss on two bases assuming both players have the same macro skill. IE constant probe/scv production, mules/chronos, constant unit production. But as I said chrono on forge does even it out in the late game, which as soon as medivacs gets into the game, however small advantage chrono upgrade(s) gave Toss in the midgame is gone.

If Toss goes down the ramp, even with same macro skill and unit count on delta, the Toss will die as the area is so open FF's are useless with MM micro.
    
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post #13794 of 25319
I see 1 gate expands pretty commonly on the ladder, and they are still even some what hard to stop. I have to really dedicate myself with a double marauder bunker rush to even properly punish it.

I certainly don't think you need to three gate robo lol. Maybe 2 gate Robo if you want to play it safe... but I don't play Protoss IDK. All I'm saying is against me they always have equal upgrades and armies, sometimes even better... with constant production on both sides.

I don't don't believe your argument is valid where I am at anyway.
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post #13795 of 25319
Ahhh what? 3 gate fe can actually apply pressure to a standard 2 rax fe and you're trying to tell us that the toss will die from 2 rax pressure if he tries to expand at his natural? What league are you in?
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post #13796 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntherblast View Post
What button/hotkey do I press to get the camera to jump to a unit/building I current have selected?
Just double tap the hotkey if that's what you mean.
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post #13797 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
I see 1 gate expands pretty commonly on the ladder, and they are still even some what hard to stop. I have to really dedicate myself with a double marauder bunker rush to even properly punish it.

I certainly don't think you need to three gate robo lol. Maybe 2 gate Robo if you want to play it safe... but I don't play Protoss IDK. All I'm saying is against me they always have equal upgrades and armies, sometimes even better... with constant production on both sides.

I don't don't believe your argument is valid where I am at anyway.
I think one gate expand could be punished fairly easily, especially with terran going all in on the ladder these days. I never said three gate robo, I said either three gate or two gate robo. And I'm only talking about delta, where the outer natural is so hard to defend. If you're talking about inside natural, sure Toss can expand there and guard the gate with sentries. However that still means Terran will be able to macro more, set out a contain and take his third faster than the Toss. With same macro even gateway colossus build cannot break the contain.

You can invalidate my comments, but you have to have some evidence, and reason and examples as backup. When you break down the timings, the resources it's how it pans out if both players are doing the same things respectively (refer to my previous post about macro example).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwarren View Post
Ahhh what? 3 gate fe can actually apply pressure to a standard 2 rax fe and you're trying to tell us that the toss will die from 2 rax pressure if he tries to expand at his natural? What league are you in?
We're talking about open naturals like Delta, instead of small chokes like xel naga. If you three gate fe vs standard 2 rax fe on open maps you will die. As for league, I'm only in diamond and I can't beat Jedwin or Doom straight up. I'm merely talking about the meta game objectively if both players have to same rate of production with similar builds/timings (three gate fe vs two gate fe). Toss need FF to survive in three gate vs two rax, and open naturals render FFs useless when Terran always kite and come back ten seconds later.
    
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post #13798 of 25319
Even if the natural is open ff's are still very viable......

Doom you have to check out this TvZ replay. It was my warmup game so I didn't play it as well as I could have but I ended up winning the game with literally only 10 marines and 2 tanks, I had to pull all of my scvs because he took out the turrets at my gold. This is the closest game I've ever played. It's filled with lots of base trading.

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post #13799 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowtoblerone View Post
I think one gate expand could be punished fairly easily, especially with terran going all in on the ladder these days. I never said three gate robo, I said either three gate or two gate robo. And I'm only talking about delta, where the outer natural is so hard to defend. If you're talking about inside natural, sure Toss can expand there and guard the gate with sentries. However that still means Terran will be able to macro more, set out a contain and take his third faster than the Toss. With same macro even gateway colossus build cannot break the contain.

You can invalidate my comments, but you have to have some evidence, and reason and examples as backup. When you break down the timings, the resources it's how it pans out if both players are doing the same things respectively (refer to my previous post about macro example).



We're talking about open naturals like Delta, instead of small chokes like xel naga. If you three gate fe vs standard 2 rax fe on open maps you will die. As for league, I'm only in diamond and I can't beat Jedwin or Doom straight up. I'm merely talking about the meta game objectively if both players have to same rate of production with similar builds/timings (three gate fe vs two gate fe). Toss need FF to survive in three gate vs two rax, and open naturals render FFs useless when Terran always kite and come back ten seconds later.
Why would I try to prove this to you in detail? I don't care and I think you're wrong. I'm just telling you from my experience you are way off and nothing more. I've been on equal base for the same amount of time, vs double forge, scv/probe count similar, and been 10-20 supply behind all game vs Protoss. I have a replay if you want.

The whole delta thing was more or less an off topic rant.

I'll watch tonight sovern.
Edited by DoomDash - 5/25/11 at 3:09pm
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post #13800 of 25319
Well, lol, this is the strat discussion thread. I don't mind people sharing their opinions nor do I mind everyone disagreeing. I just like to see some backup. I merely said Terrans can start their upgrades quicker than tos most of the time. If you don't agree so be it. Besides, this whole Protoss vs Terran thing wasn't started by me. Like I said it's my favourite match.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwarren View Post
Even if the natural is open ff's are still very viable......

Doom you have to check out this TvZ replay. It was my warmup game so I didn't play it as well as I could have but I ended up winning the game with literally only 10 marines and 2 tanks, I had to pull all of my scvs because he took out the turrets at my gold. This is the closest game I've ever played. It's filled with lots of base trading.

Not when Terran can kite with con and stim. By that time Terran already is on three rax one engie while Tos cannot afford to produce out four gates and nexus, nor enough money for forge upgrades. So on open natural maps with wide chokes you need many many sentries to defend but can't produce enough vs a terran timing attack.
    
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