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post #13801 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowtoblerone View Post
Well, lol, this is the strat discussion thread. I don't mind people sharing their opinions nor do I mind everyone disagreeing. I just like to see some backup. I merely said Terrans can start their upgrades quicker than tos most of the time. If you don't agree so be it. Besides, this whole Protoss vs Terran thing wasn't started by me. Like I said it's my favourite match.




Not when Terran can kite with con and stim. By that time Terran already is on three rax one engie while Tos cannot afford to produce out four gates and nexus, nor enough money for forge upgrades. So on open natural maps with wide chokes you need many many sentries to defend but can't produce enough vs a terran timing attack.
I have a feeling your doing something wrong. Post up more replays. You can get forges same times as ebays , and yes you can afford it.
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post #13802 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
I have a feeling your doing something wrong. Post up more replays. You can get forges same times as ebays , and yes you can afford it.
Definitely, and he keeps talking about kiting but that's the sole purpose of getting zealots, the mnms kite them while your stalkers take shots at them and your sentrys split the mnm army into smaller chunks.
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post #13803 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwarren View Post
Definitely, and he keeps talking about kiting but that's the sole purpose of getting zealots, the mnms kite them while your stalkers take shots at them and your sentrys split the mnm army into smaller chunks.
Yeah I remember watching him play jediwin and he just had such a terrible zealot to stalker / sentry ratio. I wonder if he's improved it. Replays.
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post #13804 of 25319
LOL I played you too, why you no tell me that when we played?

This is the last and only TvP I played today.



As for whether Toss can start forge then upgrades at the same time as Terran. I don't believe that's the case. As Toss you have to prep'd for all ins, either three or four rax. There's no magic scan button that allows you to know whether your Terran opponent is allin-ing or match your FE until your observers are out. Scouting the front only tells you so much. Therefore it's unsafe to produce a forge on three gates, one base (so early). Terran has the option of bunkering up, flying CC away, while the start their upgrades. So they feel more safe to put down an engie bay on one base while trying to FE, building a CC inside their base.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwarren View Post
Definitely, and he keeps talking about kiting but that's the sole purpose of getting zealots, the mnms kite them while your stalkers take shots at them and your sentrys split the mnm army into smaller chunks.
Of course that's the case, however on open maps Terran can just back up and come back later. Loose a few units and kill half Toss' zealots. They can cut scv's and use mules to keep on producing. They can make another rax. Either force more units and no probes, force a cancel or destroy the FE. Oh look now their CC's done and engie bay's starting +1 weapons.

I'm merely saying in open areas like Delta which Doom brought up, the natural is hard to defend against a Terran that goes two rax fe with reactor/tech, then another rax. Sentries can only do so much before energy runs out. Whereas the Terran have both con shell and stim.

Edit, also I was saying earlier regarding afford to upgrades, I was saying regarding on two bases: Having three gate FE, Toss cannot afford to produce constantly out of five gates, robo, and nexus while having double upgrades on two forges. On one base it's a matter of can I get out enough units so I don't die, rather than not enough money to put down a forge to upgrade.
Edited by yellowtoblerone - 5/25/11 at 5:12pm
    
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post #13805 of 25319
What maps are you referring to that are very open? Always take the rocks base first on Delta anyway.

I'll watch your replay, but I'm pretty sure jediwin and I both discussed you lack of Zealots when we played with you ( it was on metal ).

Again you don't need double forge, single forge fast +3 armor is still REALLY good vs bio esp when paired with GS.

Also all ins have lots of tells, and you can always gas steal Terran it does make all ins pretty much gone or at least not nearly as effective.
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post #13806 of 25319
Well, if you watch that replay you will see I've done all that. I must've forgot about you guys telling me about zealots. There could be tells about all ins but without observers or scans you don't really know, and may force you to over react to what you expect will come.

I was only talking about one point, that Terran is allowed to start their upgrades before Toss. You brought up Meta and Delta. Both naturals outside have a wide area of engagement that is favoured to a more mobile army like Terrans. As for Toss taking the inside natural on delta; Yes usually that's done, but it could mean falling behind if both players macros the same rate. This becomes more evident once Toss tries to take his third, while Terran can take any base he wants (because he simply has the more superior army at that time). While Toss, has to wait for splash units like HT and Col before pushing out to take his third on delta.
    
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post #13807 of 25319
going out for wings brb later
    
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post #13808 of 25319
I think you are making a bigger deal out of the timings of everything. You can get your splash units out just fine on 2 bases, and once a Colossus is out your are probably VERY safe to take a 3rd. I used to 2 rax FE every game, and generally if I took my third bast too fast or much faster than the Protoss at all I would never have the money to deal with any 2 base timing from a Colossus Protoss ( can't possible afford starport tech and enough vikings to make you safe once AoE is out ). It's a two way street, and I just think you can't seem to see the other side of the street from the way you're talking about. You really underestimate your race IMO. It's so hard to afford vikings marauders medivacs and upgrades, just like its hard for Protoss to afford what they need.


There is a VERY VERY VERY thin line between living and dying once Colossus are out if you don't have enough vikings. I've lost games just because my viking timings were literally 30 seconds off. It's not safe to take a 3rd much faster if at all faster than Protoss. I would say generally it will be the same.
Edited by DoomDash - 5/25/11 at 5:31pm
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post #13809 of 25319
lol big have we ever played on typhon peaks? I was laddering today and was like forgot this is in the pool... >.>
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post #13810 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
Oh I agree everyone is biased if they pick one race. But what about jediwin? He thinks Protoss is easy as hell and he plays random @ high master level .
I'm only random high gold at the moment (My Terran is definitely higher than gold though) I'm still trying to fine tune my Zerg play. I lose a lot of ZvZs.

Anyways I think Protoss is pretty damn easy too. Only matchup I don't like for Protoss is *gasp* PvP. HAHA against another Protoss.

Seriously I'm not BSing you guys... one time I was playing a PvZ and I felt like I had down syndrome that game. I had crappy forcefields, no army, low APM, swarmed by lings, and towards the end of the game for some reason he let me get like 4-5 colossi and a ton of stalkers/zealots. My friggin mouse cord came out of the COMPUTER! (MY usb ports are horrible) Once my mouse gets disconnected I can't reconnect it unless I restart my computer so guess what I did...

I prayed and hoped that my opponent would GG before he realizes I can't got damn move. I tried to move with just my keyboard, but it wouldn't move/attack for me. Luckily my mouse got disconnected when I was right outside of his main. He kept sending in swarms of lings/roaches/corruptors into my colossi army and I just stood there with 0 APM and then he finally GGed because of the amount of colossi hahaha I won a game without a mouse. I told him GG back and then he left the game ROFL. He could of won that game if he knew my mouse was stuck.
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