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post #14731 of 25319
Twistacles, I love you.


OMG @ Morrow picking Terran vs July @ NASL finals.



What a mistake, he got steam rolled. I actually think he would have crushed July ZvZ

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post #14732 of 25319
When the **** did moon get so good?
post #14733 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by taintedmind View Post
- Also, from one of the links "I noticed that (un-)deploying my tanks 1second too early/late could mean the difference between a win and a loss" but doesn't really all races have this? "Your mineral line-harassing mutalisks (worth 500minerals and 500 gas) moved out 1 second too late and was torn to pieces by 8 stimming marines (worth 400 minerals).", "Feedback was 1 second too late and now my entire army was murdered by 1 ghost." So aren't we all in the same boat?

Please tell me what is so hard about terran? I mean, I watch a lot of them streams and tournaments and all I keep seeing is marines, marines and more marines killing everything and the occasional fungal growth followed by terrans crying for fungal nerf. 3-3 marines... the horror.
The thing is with tanks, you need to hop them, so, if you aren't careful, all the Z has to do is run some slings+blings into your army and your marines are gone(to blings) and tanks are surrounded by slings. Source: my experience on both sides

As for FG, issue is that you can't retreat if you get FG'd, you are stuck. If you could retreat, then FGing isn't as OP as it sounds. You do realize that it got crazy buffed a couple of patches back(+30% armored). I'm all for Z love, but, IMO, that buff wasn't needed and FG was OP already(considering how fast it kills groups of marines).

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
Yeah, I think until you play Terran at master level at least its probably hard to understand what is hard about them. That's when you literally must be good at micro, extremely abusive, know really tight timings, always been in the correct position, and literally micro the entire battles.

May I ask what league you are in Tainted? I hate to say it but there is a huge difference in understanding the difficulties of something once people actually understand how to play against it properly. I'd say 99% of people losing to Terran in the lower leagues is just poor scouting build order losses, or just something as simple as the wrong unit comp.

As Twist said TvZ and TvP are an uphill battle for Terran. I do agree Terran has a slight advantage very early in the game, but that's the only thing they have to give them a fighting chance late, because Terran macro just isn't as good as P or Z.

Zerg has plenty of challenging things, but I don't think micro is it. T micro for sure, and probably even P micro is more challenging. As I said last time Zerg has other unique things about the race that make them challenging.
Unfortunately that isn't the case anymore. Even in gold, I've run into Z players that actually go into macro and will keep droning until they feel pressured enough to make some units. Makes the game almost impossible to win as T on a long map due to blings(easier for P IMO due to higher hp, ffs, etc...). Ex: recent game on Scrap, I exp'd to my natural and was going to exp to the island. The Z player had 4 bases by the time I had 2 up and then rolled my army It was partly my fault for not pressuring and I realized that he had that many bases too late but I couldn't do anything about it. Might as well gg before his attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by taintedmind View Post
Well. I am no pro player and my opinions are only based on my own experiences (in my games and the streams that I watch - so no, what I say may not be totally accurate or even close to accurate).

As for my league, I have tried every race so far and I achieved:

Terran: Top platinum
Protoss: Top Platinum
Zerg: Top Silver

Why? Started as terran and steamrolled to top plat using marines, stim and medivacs. Got bored, switched to toss and continued in top plat, was a bit more of a challange but managed to keep up and did not fall in ranks. Felt like it was not my race and switched to zerg (always had a thing for dem zergs but was scared of the macro needed ) and my god it was like trying to carve wood with a wooden stick when I started and my rank crashed into the ground and I am now working my way up again and have big hopes for season 3 as zerg.
Reason you got streamrolled is the same reason I kept on getting steamrolled as a Z back when I was in Silver. I would get an exp, make some drones and then constantly make units but with Z, you need to keep making drones and make units at the last second possible. Eventually, I improved my macro and I find Z pretty easy to play. Terran is much harder with P/Z tied for second place

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
OMG @ Morrow picking Terran vs July @ NASL finals.


What a mistake, he got steam rolled. I actually think he would have crushed July ZvZ

hehe. SOOO MANY BANELINGS!!!!!
    
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post #14734 of 25319
So many banelings in Moon vs HasuObs game 1!!!!!
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post #14735 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
So many banelings in Moon vs HasuObs game 1!!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigFan View Post
hehe. SOOO MANY BANELINGS!!!!!
Game 2 was pretty good though, complete domination!


You guys, up for a game while we wait?
    
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post #14736 of 25319
No SCII for me tonight. Playing PS3 .
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post #14737 of 25319
Quote:
The thing is with tanks, you need to hop them, so, if you aren't careful, all the Z has to do is run some slings+blings into your army and your marines are gone(to blings) and tanks are surrounded by slings. Source: my experience on both sides
Didn't we just cover this with "omg marine micro so hard"? That if you do not pay attention, regardless of race you might get rolled over. "if you aren't careful your colossus will be killed by a single viking" or "if you're not careful all of your infestors will be killed by a single ghost (as Destiny has witnessed, Scan + EMP = GG LOL)".

Quote:
As for FG, issue is that you can't retreat if you get FG'd, you are stuck. If you could retreat, then FGing isn't as OP as it sounds. You do realize that it got crazy buffed a couple of patches back(+30% armored). I'm all for Z love, but, IMO, that buff wasn't needed and FG was OP already(considering how fast it kills groups of marines).

Need something to deal with the bioball that tears everything to pieces, no? How can you see something, anything that can actually stop the bloody bioball of doom as OP? If something's OP it's the bloody bioball, every single part of it.

Quote:
Unfortunately that isn't the case anymore. Even in gold, I've run into Z players that actually go into macro and will keep droning until they feel pressured enough to make some units. Makes the game almost impossible to win as T on a long map due to blings(easier for P IMO due to higher hp, ffs, etc...). Ex: recent game on Scrap, I exp'd to my natural and was going to exp to the island. The Z player had 4 bases by the time I had 2 up and then rolled my army It was partly my fault for not pressuring and I realized that he had that many bases too late but I couldn't do anything about it. Might as well gg before his attack.
If someone turtles, harass them. Of course they're gonna roll all over you if you let them mass up. :/ Exactly the same with P's deathball or T's bioball.

Quote:
Reason you got streamrolled is the same reason I kept on getting steamrolled as a Z back when I was in Silver. I would get an exp, make some drones and then constantly make units but with Z, you need to keep making drones and make units at the last second possible. Eventually, I improved my macro and I find Z pretty easy to play. Terran is much harder with P/Z tied for second place
I am "developing" a special little opening that deals rather well with most early pressure builds. It still needs some refining, but going pretty well. As for the mass droning, I usually wait till a little bit later when I feel safe to drone up, just so that I am not caught out of position with no army what so ever (other than spines that marauders just laughs at anyway). Also I am rather confused, because just as you say everyone says the same "drone like mad bro" but that just ends up with a loss to early aggression... Of course in higher leagues when people aren't scrubs anymore and do not wish to end the game within the first 10 minutes it works, but not in the lower leagues nor teamgames...




^ derp. This kinda sums up how imbalanced T is. For close to no cost one can create units that tears basically anything apart...
derp
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derp
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post #14738 of 25319
I could show you 10000 games that make it look Zerg favored as hell. Also yes that's true that if you if you make mistakes as the other races they can also lose, but for Terran it comes much faster and things like position are even more important.

PS That game looks like some very casual crap, Ravens and Hydras? LOL. Also I don't see any imbalance in it anyway.

All I know is you should keep playing Terran, then come back to me when you get Masters and you keeping getting rolled by Zerg, because I will tell you every single Terran player in Masters on here cannot stand Zerg because they are just so powerful, and they require less fancy play to be successful.

Also BigFan was a 100% Zerg player up until this season, and he used to argue the same crap you argue with me up and down until he played around more and become a random player, now you a trolling him with silly pictures because he's giving you his opinion even though if he has anything to be biased to its Zerg. You can say I am biased as I play 99% T, but he is not.

Honestly keep playing Terran, get to masters, and if you don't come on here crying about how stupid hard TvZ is I will be shocked, because almost no one else can figure it out at equal skill level. The only player on here who can do it really well is Jediwin, a random player, but I blame it on his 200 APM Korean skills ( He korean ). Also Jediwin is sick at ZvT too.

I think TvZ is fine at pro level because of the skill ceiling Terran has, but again to maximize Terran to be on an equal playing field I think you have to be more skilled. Don't believe me that's fine, but you'll find a lot of people feel this way, even people who play random. That also means in theory Terran is the best race, easy to learn, hard to master, and I'm fine with that.

You're more than welcome to try some good marine micro vs my literally 1A Zerg never play zerg, but I don't think you'll be happy getting rolled by no micro Zerg.
Edited by DoomDash - 7/8/11 at 5:32pm
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post #14739 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by taintedmind View Post
Didn't we just cover this with "omg marine micro so hard"? That if you do not pay attention, regardless of race you might get rolled over. "if you aren't careful your colossus will be killed by a single viking" or "if you're not careful all of your infestors will be killed by a single ghost (as Destiny has witnessed, Scan + EMP = GG LOL)".
One viking will take a long time to kill one colossi As for covering it, the idea is mostly that Z units move fast, so if I accidentally misclick my mutas, I'll lose some but I can at least retreat, not so much for T units. T units are average speed(faster with stim) but mech is pretty slow. Tanks are easily surrounded and ripped apart if the marines are taken out. I just played a ZvsT on delta where the opponent tried to double drop my base, easily held it off due to vision and then took more bases and took out his army every time with relative ease. Slings+banes are amazing at taking out marine+tank combos if you can catch them offguard


Need something to deal with the bioball that tears everything to pieces, no? How can you see something, anything that can actually stop the bloody bioball of doom as OP? If something's OP it's the bloody bioball, every single part of it.
There is this special unit in Z specifically for infantry called banelings, you should try it in your ZvsT if you think the bioball is that bad Joking aside, I used to lose to this bioball pretty much every single ZvsT in season 1 back when I started laddering. Once I started adding in banes, MMM became a joke and pretty easy to deal with.

Also, we aren't at a level where our T opponents have amazing splits and can micro to save his/her life. There are no MKPs in NA ladder(although some in GM are darn good with splits) especially at the lower levels. My Z is probably around plat level easy, maybe slightly higher, but, my point is, add in banes and watch your win rate go up. It's much harder for the Terran to do the split then for me to run in the banes and split them into 2 or 3 groups(to follow his marine groups).

The P bioball is also a lot deadlier than the T one to deal with because they are harder to take out head on due to the raw dps unless you use bane drops which are still amazingly effective and are being used in a lot of ZvsP games in comparison to the old roach+hydra+corruptor composition. My point is with this wall of text is, the bioballs aren't difficult to deal with at our level if you can keep your macro up and use banes/bane drops efficiently. As for infestors, units pack much tighter in SCII for one FG takes out a LOT of hp and 2 FGs can take out a ton of marines at once, not to mention that FG works great against armored units. I'm sticking to my original point, infestors are becoming an OP unit not that I care much since I'm random and get to use them/they get used against me


If someone turtles, harass them. Of course they're gonna roll all over you if you let them mass up. :/ Exactly the same with P's deathball or T's bioball.
hehe, was trying to play a more macro game oriented and just focus on making workers and not get supply blocked. I even got a fast inbase OC and was planning on double exping(one to island, another nearby minerals) but for some reason, didn't and when I went for a late drop, I noticed that he has taken the gold as well as another exp. Too late by then to do much damage. That and scrap is such a long map that its harder, if not impossible to 2 rax on.
Had I had 2 thors out or so, I would've held his attack since it was his muta count that wiped my marines then my tanks, not the slings


I am "developing" a special little opening that deals rather well with most early pressure builds. It still needs some refining, but going pretty well. As for the mass droning, I usually wait till a little bit later when I feel safe to drone up, just so that I am not caught out of position with no army what so ever (other than spines that marauders just laughs at anyway). Also I am rather confused, because just as you say everyone says the same "drone like mad bro" but that just ends up with a loss to early aggression... Of course in higher leagues when people aren't scrubs anymore and do not wish to end the game within the first 10 minutes it works, but not in the lower leagues nor teamgames...
That's why you prepare for anything and everything. A single spore in your mineral line with a spine incase of drops. A couple of slings+banes then drone like mad. Even then, you can drone like mad without making a single unit if you are constantly scouting and watching your opponent's army size/unit composition, etc....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwQ-t9CgCRI

^ derp. This kinda sums up how imbalanced T is. For close to no cost one can create units that tears basically anything apart...
If you make use of chokes and micro well, T can be very rewarding. It's what doom has been trying to say, but, this is only high level play(pros).
    
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post #14740 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
Also BigFan was a 100% Zerg player up until this season, and he used to argue the same crap you argue with me up and down until he played around more and become a random player, now you a trolling him with silly pictures because he's giving you his opinion even though if he has anything to be biased to its Zerg. You can say I am biased as I play 99% T, but he is not.

You're more than welcome to try some good marine micro vs my literally 1A Zerg never play zerg, but I don't think you'll be happy getting rolled by no micro Zerg.
hey, hey, take it easy I can't recall how much arguing I used to make against the bioball since I haven't lost to it since I started using banes My bias to Z is pretty much history now since I'm random. In the end, I think infestors are just too strong of a unit since FG removes any possible micro and I hate that They might have low hp, are pretty big, wobbly and stand out but this makes EMP less effective(due to size) and all you need is one FG to do some serious damage to an MMM ball

BTW, I forgot to mention that I have only teched to hive 2-3 times in all my Z games to get ultras/BLs. I usually rely on slings/banes/roaches/mutas to win my games, so, I don't use infestors much aside from occassional use in my ZvsZ games now

Also, I find Z much easier to play from P/T even with all the extra tasks and usually lose my games when I don't scout enough/fail to make a strong enough army in time to counter my opponents but its something that I've improved on as well


EDIT: BTW, I would be interested in watching that TvsZ game you guys might play

EDIT2: That darkforce against live match game 3 was just sad to watch.
Darkforce FG'd like 14-15 vikings at once and like that, they were gone

Edited by BigFan - 7/8/11 at 8:43pm
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
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Seagate Barracuda 250GB Windows 7 Professional 64bit Samsung SW2494 24" Antec Earthpower 650W 
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Apevia X-Plorer 
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Q6600 2.40GHZ Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3L MSI GTX570 @ stock Corsair 2GB DDR2 800MHz 
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Seagate Barracuda 250GB Windows 7 Professional 64bit Samsung SW2494 24" Antec Earthpower 650W 
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Apevia X-Plorer 
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