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post #22101 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by hamzatm View Post

Come off it, constant production is all you have to do? Whatever world you guys live in it isn't the same as ours..
And this is complete garbage. Just keep building stuff, sure, don't worry about composition, just send those 150 marines into an array of sieged up tanks and keep doing it and watch yourself win right?
And just saying, this kind of proves you seem to be one of the "arrogant high league players" aforementioned.
Dude, I spectated a bronze match two days ago and can confirm it doesn't matter one bit what kind of army you build, if your base mechanics are sound, you roll through no problem.

And to Ronnin, "just do what you usually do in an RTS." Is way easier said than done for bronze players. Which is why focusing on macro pay and ignoring micro is how you get past bronze, silver, and even gold.
Edited by Maian - 5/18/13 at 11:49am
post #22102 of 25319
Guys, what I'm saying is you don't express yourselves correctly. If you said "forget micro and focus on macro" I would agree, but that's very far from "just build stuff, doesn't even matter what". Don't you see the difference?

You have to put a lot of thought in your game if you focus on macro. You don't have to put any thought if you "just build stuff, doesn't even matter what". Hamzatm is right, "just build stuff, doesn't even matter what" doesn't account for expanding, timing, scouting, ect, all of which you later confirmed is important in Bronze. So just more care in expressions and everyone will agree smile.gif
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post #22103 of 25319
Well even scouting doesn't matter in bronze (to the extent that it does in high-level play). Focus on your own mechanics. I say scouting doesn't matter because in bronze you don't know what you're looking for when you scout. If it's a 4-spot map, then scout so you know where your opponent is, but you there's no sense in scouting out his "plan" because if he's in bronze, there's a good chance he doesn't really have one (and you don't really know what you're looking for anyways).

I do agree that "just build stuff" doesn't work, if you're not applying game-sense to it. He should've said, "Just build an army, it doesn't matter what of." In that regard, it's true. Focus on getting AN army out. Doesn't matter what it is. If your army is consistently losing, it's not the fact that you don't have the right composition -- you're actually getting out-macro'd (unless you're trying Zealots vs. Mutalisks... then, yea, you need better composition). As long as your army can HIT the opponent's army, then superior macro mechanics will win out, guaranteed.

Learning a specific build is getting ahead of yourself. It'd be like me trying to learn to play the drums, and I start off by learning a specific song, but without learning how to actually play first. Yea, you know the song (build) but outside of that specific instance, you have no idea what you're doing.

Learning openings, yea, that's semi-important. There are standard openings for each matchup. If you can get each one down to muscle memory (practice against Very Easy AI), then you'll be out of bronze in no time as long as you use the money you get from the openings.

The best way to get out of lower leagues is Macro. Forget situational builds, and just macro. If you're in Bronze or Silver, you don't have macro skills necessary to properly execute specific builds anyway. You may think you do, but you don't. You're still actually learning, regardless of whether or not you've been playing since Day 1. If your macro mechanics were great, you wouldn't be in Bronze.
Edited by Maian - 5/18/13 at 12:45pm
post #22104 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maian View Post

Well even scouting doesn't matter in bronze (to the extent that it does in high-level play). Focus on your own mechanics. I say scouting doesn't matter because in bronze you don't know what you're looking for when you scout. If it's a 4-spot map, then scout so you know where your opponent is, but you there's no sense in scouting out his "plan" because if he's in bronze, there's a good chance he doesn't really have one (and you don't really know what you're looking for anyways).

THis is right and wrong at the same time. The reason I say scout a bit is so you dont just 1a into choke infront of a wall of siege tanks.

Scouting is not just at the very beginning of the game with a worker. IMO it's always important to scout before an attack. You have to know what you are attacking into or you might just walk right into death.
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post #22105 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewHighScore View Post

THis is right and wrong at the same time. The reason I say scout a bit is so you dont just 1a into choke infront of a wall of siege tanks.

Scouting is not just at the very beginning of the game with a worker. IMO it's always important to scout before an attack. You have to know what you are attacking into or you might just walk right into death.

Good scouting will usually win you the game. You just have to know what action to take and be able to do it efficiently.
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post #22106 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maian View Post

Well even scouting doesn't matter in bronze (to the extent that it does in high-level play). Focus on your own mechanics. I say scouting doesn't matter because in bronze you don't know what you're looking for when you scout. If it's a 4-spot map, then scout so you know where your opponent is, but you there's no sense in scouting out his "plan" because if he's in bronze, there's a good chance he doesn't really have one (and you don't really know what you're looking for anyways).

People do have plans in Bronze. They usually have an army composition in mind and build up to it. If they see the opponent went something like mass siege tanks they often change their plan to counter it - obviously not immediately, efficiently and effectively, but they do it in their own way and it definitely makes a difference.

If you are specifically referring to scouting out something like your opponent took a really fast gas, and then knowing what that means in terms of the timing of their aggression or whatever, then yes a Bronze player wouldn't know the full extent of what he can do based on that info. But then the player he is playing against isn't at 100% efficiency with their builds so it doesn't even matter. Does that mean that scouting is useless? No it doesn't, Bronze players know what to expect at their own level based on their scouting. Or at least Silver's do.

Of course scouting is important! It just works on a completely different level to what higher game scouting means. It's like someone before mentioned, Bronze (and Silver etc) players have their own strategies counters techniques and everything, but its just different to the tight strats and predictive play you get in higher leagues.
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post #22107 of 25319
The silver player at my job just figured out that people flying their buildings around on to tech labs or reactors weren't just doing it because they designed their base poorly. He was also using a Razer Naga with all the hotkeys on the mouse ( which is just odd ). I will take him under my wing though. biggrin.gif
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post #22108 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by hamzatm View Post

Come off it, constant production is all you have to do? Whatever world you guys live in it isn't the same as ours..
And this is complete garbage. Just keep building stuff, sure, don't worry about composition, just send those 150 marines into an array of sieged up tanks and keep doing it and watch yourself win right?
And just saying, this kind of proves you seem to be one of the "arrogant high league players" aforementioned.
You're not getting it. You can absolutely win against siege tanks with pure marines in bronze league. If you ONLY pay attention to correct macro, you'll have 100 marines by the time a bronze player has 2-3 siege tanks. The only thing this proves is that denying the validity of advice from "arrogant high league players" is a good way to STAY in bronze league.

It's not a question of whether 150 marines beats 10 siege tanks behind a walloff. If he does that, you will have so much time to do anything you want that it really doesn't matter what he makes. It's a question of learning to prioritize your attention. Focusing on macro will win more games faster than focusing on anything else, and it's training that is still relevant at higher skill levels, as opposed to designing a complicated response to an allin you'll only ever see in bronze league.
Edited by TranquilTempest - 5/19/13 at 12:16am
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post #22109 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by TranquilTempest View Post

You're not getting it. You can absolutely win against siege tanks with pure marines in bronze league. If you ONLY pay attention to correct macro, you'll have 100 marines by the time a bronze player has 2-3 siege tanks. The only thing this proves is that denying the validity of advice from "arrogant high league players" is a good way to STAY in bronze league.

It's not a question of whether 150 marines beats 10 siege tanks behind a walloff. If he does that, you will have so much time to do anything you want that it really doesn't matter what he makes. It's a question of learning to prioritize your attention. Focusing on macro will win more games faster than focusing on anything else, and it's training that is still relevant at higher skill levels, as opposed to designing a complicated response to an allin you'll only ever see in bronze league.

You're not getting it, allow me to explain:

"Focus on macro" sure, we are in agreement that's a great way to win bronze games.

"Just always keep producing and forget everything else" <-- arrogant advice that won't help you win anything.

See the difference?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post

He was also using a Razer Naga with all the hotkeys on the mouse ( which is just odd ).

Sounds legit, why wouldn't you want to use the naga keys for at least some stuff?
Edited by hamzatm - 5/19/13 at 5:21am
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post #22110 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by hamzatm View Post

You're not getting it, allow me to explain:

"Focus on macro" sure, we are in agreement that's a great way to win bronze games.

"Just always keep producing and forget everything else" <-- arrogant advice that won't help you win anything.

See the difference?
Sounds legit, why wouldn't you want to use the naga keys for at least some stuff?

Advice is actually not arrogant at all. Isolated training for one thing is much better than trying to do everything all together for newbie.
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