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[Official] Starcraft 2 Strategy & Discussion Thread - Page 2313

post #23121 of 25319
HotS is just as stale, only difference being all races have viable openers and terran walling off a ramp doesn't make them immune to pressure for the 1st 5 minutes anymore...which makes it less stale...crap lol.

Still, I don't like HotS because it was designed to allow units with low skill caps to dominate to the point where you need disproportionate amounts of effort to combat said unit.

Protoss have the new Void Ray
Terran have Widow Mines
Zerg are unique in the fact they didn't get a low skill ceiling unit that requires a much greater amount of effort to counter than to use.

WoL was a mess, I wouldn't even try to claim that game was balanced because it wasn't though its better now that Vortex and Infestors got nerfed.
post #23122 of 25319
Quote:
Zerg are unique in the fact they didn't get a low skill ceiling unit that requires a much greater amount of effort to counter than to use.

swarm host
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post #23123 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

swarm host

Swarm hosts take plenty of skill to use, clump them and watch AoE decimate, spread them too far apart and watch them get picked off. Then you have to fortify your defensive position as you push forward with creep, spores and Swarm hosts.

That's why I didn't mention them because the skill to use isn't disproportionate to the skill to effectively counter.
post #23124 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

Swarm hosts take plenty of skill to use, clump them and watch AoE decimate, spread them too far apart and watch them get picked off. Then you have to fortify your defensive position as you push forward with creep, spores and Swarm hosts.

That's why I didn't mention them because the skill to use isn't disproportionate to the skill to effectively counter.

You could say a lot of similar stuff about the other units you mentioned.
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post #23125 of 25319
Zerg has nothing to really counter a lot of voidrays. Hydra's get decimated by colossus. Corrupters get owned by voids and mix in a few stalkers and muta's are also useless.
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post #23126 of 25319
Quote:
Zerg has nothing to really counter a lot of voidrays. Hydra's get decimated by colossus.

Is this one statement or two?

If you go about the game vs protoss like "we're both gonna sit on our half of the map and then fight at 10-30 minutes" you better bring your infestors swarmhosts and static defense farm or you're gonna have a bad time
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post #23127 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

You could say a lot of similar stuff about the other units you mentioned.

Sure, if you want to murder context and not have the decency to bury it properly.

Swarm Hosts are high risk-high reward units that require solid micro to support and good positioning to remain viable vs equally skill opponents.

That's not problematic in the least bit from a design standpoint and the numbers are solid enough from a balance standpoint (it could even use a tiny buff imo).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

Is this one statement or two?

If you go about the game vs protoss like "we're both gonna sit on our half of the map and then fight at 10-30 minutes" you better bring your infestors swarmhosts and static defense farm or you're gonna have a bad time

Depends on how the Protoss plays, a good Protoss player will keep pressure on the zerg so they can't properly expand while maximizing their macro at base to create th unstoppable VR Colossus Deathball that zerg need 3+ remaxes to deal with.

Zerg are super, super fragile at the very start to the point where a cannon contain can utterly wreck even the best zerg players (not to be confused with cannon rush, contain is a branch off of the FFE opener).
Edited by DIYDeath - 4/18/14 at 6:58pm
post #23128 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

Sure, if you want to murder context and not have the decency to bury it properly.

Swarm Hosts are high risk-high reward units that require solid micro to support and good positioning to remain viable vs equally skill opponents.

That's not problematic in the least bit from a design standpoint and the numbers are solid enough from a balance standpoint (it could even use a tiny buff imo).
Depends on how the Protoss plays, a good Protoss player will keep pressure on the zerg so they can't properly expand while maximizing their macro at base to create th unstoppable VR Colossus Deathball that zerg need 3+ remaxes to deal with.

Yea, but those protoss players, if they choose to play like that, which can actually pull it off against a strong zerg player are off winning many thousands of dollars, not haunting the platinum league ladder. That's where my problem is with 99% of the people complaining

If you're losing when you're a weak player, what do you expect? There are two options:

1; You become a strong player and don't lose like that any more to those players, ever

2; There is some kind of change which allows weak players to win, upsetting the balance of power and skill.

I think everybody who plays RTS seriously wants the stronger player to win, and there is a lot going into that - blizzard has done the best job of any game in the HISTORY of real time strategy for the top quarter of the playerbase - and if you have good mechanics OR you play a decent amount and understand the game on a basic enough level to discuss problems like this, you'll be there.
Edited by Cyro999 - 4/18/14 at 6:55pm
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post #23129 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

Yea, but those protoss players, if they choose to play like that, which can actually pull it off against a strong zerg player are off winning many thousands of dollars, not haunting the platinum league ladder. That's where my problem is with 99% of the people complaining

If you're losing when you're a weak player, what do you expect? There are two options:

1; You become a strong player and don't lose like that any more to those players, ever

2; There is some kind of change which allows weak players to win, upsetting the balance of power and skill.

I think everybody who plays RTS seriously wants the stronger player to win, and there is a lot going into that - blizzard has done the best job of any game in the HISTORY of real time strategy for the top quarter of the playerbase - and if you have good mechanics OR you play a decent amount and understand the game on a basic enough level to discuss problems like this, you'll be there.

For this conversation we're assuming everyone is of equal skill or there's just no point. You can't compare a bronze leaguer to a plat or a plat to masters. You just can't, at those levels the game is vastly different.

Plat leauge is HotS is no joke, WoL masters and even HotS masters ended up there because of the horrific match making and degrading rank system.

I'm not sure how bad players vs good players ties into Starcraft 2's awful unit design...
post #23130 of 25319
Quote:
I'm not sure how bad players vs good players ties into Starcraft 2's awful unit design...

I was trying to make a relevant discussion instead of joining the "sc2 is terrible" club that half of forum posters seem to have been going on about FOR THE LAST FOUR YEARS

when will it end wth.gif

I'm glad that TL throws warnings and bans for random talk about how terrible the game apparently is with no direction or legitimate discussion, they even have specific forum sections for balance and design discussions. Could we put that stuff in a separate thread instead of making this one worse?
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