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post #24631 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

Ugh. So let me get this straight. You think that a flying single target, extremely low health unit that gets zoned out by a single turret+repair is less effective than an invisible unit that has +damage to shields, frequently kills a plethora of units with a single shot and has a stretchy leash range?

That's blatant bias. I've stated why it's bias. I've explicity outlined why you're wrong and highlighted the various interactions which cause this problem. You're ingoring those points and harping on about how Oracles are better which is besides the point but I entertained you anyhow and showed you why they aren't better.

You want proof after we lost all our old replays due to a format change? lol. I was #1 daimond vs low masters at the end of HotS beta, I don't care if you believe me or not.

Again with your blatant bias. Frankly, I don't care that you think that. You don't support your points. Therefore if anyone's word is going to be taken it's the guy who actually outlines the scenarios and shows why his opinion is right.

If you actually have a point to make instead of this wishy washy "I feel this way" nonsense feel free to pipe in. Until then, keep the bias to yourself. I shouldn't have to be this direct, basically calling you out on not supporting your opinions.

For Christ's sake you tried to prove your point of mines not being overpowered in PvT using a TvT scenario...doh.gif

First off, I'm talking about mines vs Oracles in general, I never implied otherwise. That means using TvT as an example works perfectly fine, since I think over all oracles are the most ridiculous worker harrass unit in the entire game over all in every match up, not just PvT. Nothing we said can be proven, there is no factual evidence behind anything either of us has said, so we both make our decisions or opinions on the matters based on our own play and what we see in pro games. I think mines are definitely best vs protoss, but I think oracles are even better vs Terran on the flip side (for worker harrass). As I've stated it's my opinion based on playing and what I see at the highest level, that's basically all I or you can offer, unless we really break it down by analyzing every single VOD and providing statistical analysis of the amount of damage each of them do. Since we both are not going to do that, we can only argue our personal opinions and observations. You weren't arguing any more factual than I was. I didn't feel you supported your points at all either, but it is what it is.

And yeah I don't believe you are Diamond level, I've watched you play, and I see no way that you were ever beating masters players unless it was really abusing some broken crap during HotS beta. How about instead of saying you could beat X because of something you did in HotS beta you tell us where you currently are skill level wise.

That and you fully admit that you play non-traditional Protoss style, so maybe it is you just having this major issue with mines.

TL:DR I do think mines are a more powerful over all unit than Oracles, I'm ONLY talking about openings so it's not like I'm being super biased. I can admit where they are better.

Naniwa "Oracles are so fast its completely stupid".
Edited by DoomDash - 10/8/15 at 11:09am
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post #24632 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post

First off, I'm talking about mines vs Oracles in general, I never implied otherwise. That means using TvT as an example works perfectly fine, since I think over all oracles are the most ridiculous worker harrass unit in the entire game over all in every match up, not just PvT. Nothing we said can be proven, there is no factual evidence behind anything either of us has said, so we both make our decisions or opinions on the matters based on our own play and what we see in pro games. I think mines are definitely best vs protoss, but I think oracles are even better vs Terran on the flip side (for worker harrass). As I've stated it's my opinion based on playing and what I see at the highest level, that's basically all I or you can offer, unless we really break it down by analyzing every single VOD and providing statistical analysis of the amount of damage each of them do. Since we both are not going to do that, we can only argue our personal opinions and observations. You weren't arguing any more factual than I was. I didn't feel you supported your points at all either, but it is what it is.

And yeah I don't believe you are Diamond level, I've watched you play, and I see no way that you were ever beating masters players unless it was really abusing some broken crap during HotS beta. How about instead of saying you could beat X because of something you did in HotS beta you tell us where you currently are skill level wise.

That and you fully admit that you play non-traditional Protoss style, so maybe it is you just having this major issue with mines.

TL:DR I do think mines are a more powerful over all unit than Oracles, I'm ONLY talking about openings so it's not like I'm being super biased. I can admit where they are better.

Naniwa "Oracles are so fast its completely stupid".

If the context is PvT then why bring it up in general? That changes my tune a bit. In general, if we ignore that dumb + shields damage I completely agree. Zerg get annoyed by it (can't 1-a ling swarms and go do something else for a sec) and in TvT the extra scv health makes mines...well you're better off getting tanks for most situations xD. On a broad sense, not accounting for a specific mathcup I do agree that thee Oracle is comparatively better. It's only when factoring in PvT that I think mines end up as the better harass unit. That's a multi stage problem, it's not entirely the mine's fault. It's just as much Protoss lacking decent, mobile detect from anything but robo which is just too expensive to get vs a good terran who will stuff a reaper down your throat, then mines and folow up with a stim timing. Aa singular event in that chain means the mine loses a lot of it's power. It's the snowballing effect of making Protoss get ssuper expensive tech paths far, far too early that hurts because Protoss is expensive and have to massively hurt their economy to properly deal with rushed mine drops or even pre-stim bio mine with the stim timing right around the corner.

I also play standard, I just prefer to not play traditionally. 1 gate 1 robo expand is pretty standard - and it's not safe what so ever unless the terran is not very aggressive in the early game. Stargate play gets blind countered every game, I'm currently trying to experiment with using Oracles as detect and going for chargelot oracle to control the early game. It's not much better. Oracles don't find damage in HotS if the terran prepares for it and has good reactions.

Doubt all you want. https://youtu.be/psAp20bv4Jg

You know why this game is a good case? Because it's full of perfect calls, baits, splits, pressure and saves. These are all things even the best Protoss players don't consistently do. When's the last time you saw protoss deliberately split their army in half, let seekers hit but not hit hard enough to kill the army (losing 1 zealot to double seeker), bait the opponent massively out of position and attack their base, meeting them head on with archons+a chargelot wrap and storms just as stim runs out? You rarely see that kind of stuff in daimond, that's masters territory. If you disagree feel free to give me a link to a Protoss low level game that's comparable. I doubt you'll find one though.

Worst thing I abused in beta was blink all-in and that wasn't exactly nasty except vs terran players who had no clue that marauders+1 turret shut that play down, bar a really, really bad map like korhol city (too much ledge to protect).

Mines are only really powerful openings vs Protoss in HotS because they have that dumb +shield damage and becasue Protoss detect is pretty freaking bad if it doesn't come from the robo. I pretty much agree with you if we aren't talking about PvT reaper-mine-stim timing.

Oh I found out why terrans keep doing Reaper FE into a mine drop then stim timing: ForGG does this and utterly wrecks his Protoss opponents with it, it severely punishes stargate and templar openings while making robo openings pretty sub optimal due to the good economy Terran get off of it (similar to WoL 1rax FE).
Edited by DIYDeath - 10/8/15 at 4:29pm
post #24633 of 25319
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post



Doubt all you want. https://youtu.be/psAp20bv4Jg


The money that is being floated in that game on two bases is not Diamond play. I am sorry.
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post #24634 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti!! View Post

The money that is being floated in that game on two bases is not Diamond play. I am sorry.

As Protoss you need to do that if you have that many warp gates. Otherwise how do you afford the warp ins?

Lets do the math here.

12 Warp Gates.

Stalker mineral cost: 125
Zealot mineral cost: 100
Dark Templar mineral cost: 125

125x12=1500
100x12=1200

So my 1k-2k mineral bank (2k only at the very end of the game) means I get 1 round of warp ins before I'm broke again.

Warp ins require a bank or the Warp Gates are dead weight, having a mineral bank to support that is imparative. Otherwise how do you fight your opponent? The point I'm making is that different races are different and much like zerg's batch building of units that requires a bank, mass warp gates requires one too.

It was also 3 bases, not 2 and that was for both players.

I can tell you don't play Protoss - or at least play them well. tongue.gif My guess is you main terran where not having a bank is a good thing due to how their production works.
Edited by DIYDeath - 10/8/15 at 5:51pm
post #24635 of 25319
just because you can use APM and bait mines doesn't mean that mines are ineffective at lower levels of play

where blizzard went wrong with sc2 is really that a RTS of that insane pace needs units that just move and shoot on their own without requiring human intervention
without lowering the game speed, the game just feels wrong for casual play even if it's "cooler" to watch
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post #24636 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by biz1 View Post

just because you can use APM and bait mines doesn't mean that mines are ineffective at lower levels of play

where blizzard went wrong with sc2 is really that a RTS of that insane pace needs units that just move and shoot on their own without requiring human intervention
without lowering the game speed, the game just feels wrong for casual play even if it's "cooler" to watch

Here's a question: not that I'm serious about suggesting it: Do you think that all units being height sensative and requiring a clear line of sight to attack would help with that?

So for example A roach could still shoot over a zergling but Roaches wouldn't be shooting over Ultralisks. Marines couldn't fire if there were marines infront of that marine, etc, etc.

It would basically remove deathball play except from very, very predictable unit compositions so there'd be less break neck pacing in large scale battles because large scale battles would be inefficient use of units.

Probably belongs in a different game but I've always wondered if forcing smaller scale battles would help stem some of the crazy "terrible, terrible damage" which makes sc2 so brutal and unforgiving.
post #24637 of 25319
smaller scale battles are definitely what a game of this pace should be about

there are different ways to achieve that though. it's way too subjective to really go through all of them though

i just hate the massive blobs of units. it requires hotkeying all your units in advance of battles because selecting an individual one or an individual group is kind of impossible at the game's speed
i'm not the kind of player who cares enough about starcraft to use 9 hotkeys. i'll use 3 or 4, and usually want to spend most of those on production facilities instead of units that will just die

the game feels fine when you have 8 marines and a tank or two and a medivac
the game feels fine when there are 10 zerglings, 5 roaches, and 5 banelings

the game does not feel fine when there are 30 zerglings, 10 hydras, 20 mutalisks, 3 vipiers, 2 infestors, 4 queens in a blob and I have to pull off some insane combination of active abilities, manually target different enemies with different units, all while splitting and dodging AOE, and that's still 50 supply less than the biggest armies
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post #24638 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti!! View Post

The money that is being floated in that game on two bases is not Diamond play. I am sorry.

This.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

If the context is PvT then why bring it up in general? That changes my tune a bit. In general, if we ignore that dumb + shields damage I completely agree. Zerg get annoyed by it (can't 1-a ling swarms and go do something else for a sec) and in TvT the extra scv health makes mines...well you're better off getting tanks for most situations xD. On a broad sense, not accounting for a specific mathcup I do agree that thee Oracle is comparatively better. It's only when factoring in PvT that I think mines end up as the better harass unit. That's a multi stage problem, it's not entirely the mine's fault. It's just as much Protoss lacking decent, mobile detect from anything but robo which is just too expensive to get vs a good terran who will stuff a reaper down your throat, then mines and folow up with a stim timing. Aa singular event in that chain means the mine loses a lot of it's power. It's the snowballing effect of making Protoss get ssuper expensive tech paths far, far too early that hurts because Protoss is expensive and have to massively hurt their economy to properly deal with rushed mine drops or even pre-stim bio mine with the stim timing right around the corner.

I also play standard, I just prefer to not play traditionally. 1 gate 1 robo expand is pretty standard - and it's not safe what so ever unless the terran is not very aggressive in the early game. Stargate play gets blind countered every game, I'm currently trying to experiment with using Oracles as detect and going for chargelot oracle to control the early game. It's not much better. Oracles don't find damage in HotS if the terran prepares for it and has good reactions.

Doubt all you want. https://youtu.be/psAp20bv4Jg

You know why this game is a good case? Because it's full of perfect calls, baits, splits, pressure and saves. These are all things even the best Protoss players don't consistently do. When's the last time you saw protoss deliberately split their army in half, let seekers hit but not hit hard enough to kill the army (losing 1 zealot to double seeker), bait the opponent massively out of position and attack their base, meeting them head on with archons+a chargelot wrap and storms just as stim runs out? You rarely see that kind of stuff in daimond, that's masters territory. If you disagree feel free to give me a link to a Protoss low level game that's comparable. I doubt you'll find one though.

Before I even read Anti!'s post I was already watching this replay and thinking, holy crap are you floating your money. I watch high level Protoss players and they do not float money like you do. You didn't just float it for a little while, you floated it nearly all game. Even if you think your unit control and decisions are on par with Diamond players your macro and APM are not. You had all that money and you didn't even invest in forges for upgrades? Chrono was barely used even before the late game outside a few exceptions. There is nothing about this that convinces me you are anywhere near Diamond level, and it's even less convincing when I see you stream live without a sped up replay since it more accurately shows your pacing.

And look, I'm really not trying to be mean or judgmental but when you say things like you can beat masters and everything I see leads me to believe other wise I'm going to call you out on it. I'm not saying your incompetent or anything like that, you know a lot of stuff and you can paper craft pretty well but I wouldn't put you at Diamond level in terms of play. If you want to disprove that accusation let's see you do it, this VOD is vs a Silver player and proves nothing.
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post #24640 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronnin426850 View Post


Looks like the one above has been already roasted by a Firebat.
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