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Quote:
Originally Posted by mothergoose729 View Post

But they aren't... At least not with any regularity. I watched very nearly every code S game for five years, one base marine pushes with combat shields isn't a thing and it never has been. It might be in LOTV, but there hasn't been an LOTV code S, and based on my experience playing LOTV I find it unlikely to be an effective strategy.

We're talking LotV...why would I be talking about HotS? Doesn't match the context of what you're quoting. It's also 2 base, not 1 base. Still hits @ 4 minutes.
Quote:
You might be referring to some two base 5 rax pressure builds in TvP, which has largely been out of style for years but was popular for a time. The build you described doesn't exist. Feel free to link some games.

This doesn't match context. LotV kills msot previous builds, referencing them is pointless.
Quote:
That is a gross oversimplification. Just because the composition hasn't changed doesn't mean the strategies have also not changed. There is a huge difference between bio mine builds into three base bio, and three racks openers into three base bio, even if they arrive at more or less the same place.

There is a difference in how the build plays out but as you point out - they all lead down the same yellow brick road. The road is worn out, we all know bio scales directly with player skill, we all know what it does. It's not fun to vs when you vs it almost every game nor is it fun to watch when you see it almost every tourney for 5 years from almost every terran player. Whether the T player substitutes tanks with mines or liberators or whatever else it always begins the same: mass bio units that put the game on a "hold this crazy effective push" timer. Once the timer runs out T is on the defensive.

It's a massive design issue that's fueled by what this converation is about - the mule and it's relationship with mineral sink units - and how that limits what can be buffed for late game terran because bio is, frankly borderline overpowered.
Quote:
As for the complaints about no variation... yeah, terrans are upset about that too. If there was any other viable composition you would see it. Blame blizzard on that one.

I do, that's why I'm pointing out the relationship between the marine and the mule, because that's a very large reason as to why other options aren't buffed into being viable, because when bio is that strong it would be completely unfair to the other races for terran to have other just as powerful options.
Quote:
It isn't a gimmick strategy. Zerg and Protoss can play a timing and harass oriented style too. Life and Parting do it all the time.

You missed the point, terran have a plethora of gimmicky harasses to use, all of which are viable and you can't scout them in LotV until it's far too late becasue terran are designed to deny scouting when it matters most. In HotS and WoL you can usually tell what's going to happen by the unit composition at the wall or if there's a fast CC+bunker at the nat. This isn't the case in LotV.
Quote:
Not to over generalize, but terran builds often don't revolve around denying scouting (although some certainly do). A three base bio mine push in tvz hits at the same time almost every game, and zergs know it is coming. The challenge for zerg is to crush that initial force. The challenge for terran is to force zerg out of position or into a bad fight and take momentum. Neither one is surprised with both make tons of units around 11 minutes and meet each other in the middle of the map. Source; virtually ever TvZ Innovation, Dream, or Maru played in 2014.

Again, LotV. Referencing HotS builds when discussing LotV doesn't make any sense.
Quote:
The point that I was trying to make is that ultras a brutal hard counter to everything that comes out of the barracks, not that ultras are unkillable or unbeatable.

Well, don't over rely on the rax then. That's the whole point of ultras. To force terran into a different unit composition when they come out in significant numbers. Small amounts of ultras can be dealt with by Ghosts.
Quote:
There is like five different ideas there. The old swarm host was a problem in TvZ when terran chose to mech, because swarm host was the only good answer to terran turtle mech. Some players, notably snute also used swarm host against bio but it was not common place. The nerf to swarm host was motivated by the units place in ZvP, although it was a problem in TvZ vs mech as well.

When the swarm host was nerfed, terran mech become very powerful. On some maps there just isn't a lot zerg can do. Blizzard chose not to address this balance issue late in HOTS, presumably because they were more focused on LOTV.

You're right. And it lead to some pretty game breaking scenarios - and to this day makes late game TvZ one of the worst things to happen in sc2 history, right up there with BL Infestor of WoL.
Quote:
Broodlord infestor on WOL was similar in that way; the imbalance of the composition showed up very late in WOL and blizzard was afriad to address it without knowing how the changes would effect the new expansions.

That's why Blizzard needs to dictate the meta more than react to it. A lot of these issues are very obvious on paper and in practice. Frankly, I think it had a lot to do with Blizzard wanting to push product by breaking the old one. But that's just a theory.
Quote:
You have to put things in proper context. Just because terran builds the same units doesn't make it the same strategy. I would also point out, again, that terran has been largely forced into that composition. Blame blizzard.
I can get behind that. You can't give terran a really good midgame and a really good late game. They aren't protoss tongue.gif.
Bio is strong because of mobility and because of their cost effectiveness in the mid game. The math doesn't support your claim that terrans get more resources because of mules. Protoss has chrono boost and zerg has the hatchery mechanics. If you watch pro level games and monitor the income tag, you will notice that macro terran builds, protoss build, and zerg builds have virtually identical incomes going into the late game. Download a couple dozen replays from pro games and take a look.

Again, you're missing the point. You can't analyze these things in a bubble. It's about relationships. I pointed out this relationship already, it's about the mule and cost effective, powerful mineral sinks, not the income itself.

Income means nothing if you can't spend it effectively.
Edited by DIYDeath - 11/2/15 at 8:12pm
post #24792 of 25319
Ona slightly different note: I play Protoss and Zerg so I got this fun idea of going lurker ling muta one day. It's a beastly, very hard to beat unit composition. Lings get surrounds so retreating isn't possible. Mutas control the map and pick apart the edges of the army/high value targets like Disruptors and lurkers just shred anything that's ground based in range. If there's stargate in play you just don't get as many lurkers and instead keep them as hydras.
post #24793 of 25319
LOTV is releasing soon, anyone getting it or is excited about it? cause it looks like there is a huge lack of interest. Also, this thread got so boring due to constant balance discussions...
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post #24794 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cybertox View Post

LOTV is releasing soon, anyone getting it or is excited about it? cause it looks like there is a huge lack of interest. Also, this thread got so boring due to constant balance discussions...

The trailer got me very excited. The price got me de-xcited smile.gif I'll wait for the price to drop, then I'll buy it. I'm mostly in for the story anyway, so balance discussions don't matter much to me, it's obvious that there are a few people in Blizzard who think that if stats show that matchups are 50-50, then the game is balanced. Meanwhile, everything is a hard counter. But yeah, nevermind that, I'll buy it eventually but not for that premium price.
Also I'll be buying D3's expansion soon and I can't afford to waste so much money on games in such a short period smile.gif
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post #24795 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronnin426850 View Post

The trailer got me very excited. The price got me de-xcited smile.gif I'll wait for the price to drop, then I'll buy it. I'm mostly in for the story anyway, so balance discussions don't matter much to me, it's obvious that there are a few people in Blizzard who think that if stats show that matchups are 50-50, then the game is balanced. Meanwhile, everything is a hard counter. But yeah, nevermind that, I'll buy it eventually but not for that premium price.
Also I'll be buying D3's expansion soon and I can't afford to waste so much money on games in such a short period smile.gif

Yeah I am in the same boat as you, looking forward mainly to the campaign. I also cant afford to spend money on video games because there are other things that I need to buy which have a higher priority.
Edited by Cybertox - 11/3/15 at 5:05am
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post #24796 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cybertox View Post

LOTV is releasing soon, anyone getting it or is excited about it? cause it looks like there is a huge lack of interest. Also, this thread got so boring due to constant balance discussions...

I will get it and play the campaign as fast as possible on brutal. Thats for sure.

However I was not able to play the beta more than a few times. Very much like Hots because I have no motivation to do so.
Part of the problem is there was only 1vs1 and 2vs2 available. 3vs3 and 4vs4 is not balanced but it is sooo much more fun to invite some mates and try out all new units, tactics and get an overall feeling for the new races without much pressure.
Archon is very sweet but I already discovered that playing with someone who is worse or is alot better it is not much fun at all. So my plan is if I play archon I will either play for "fun" and not care about issues (which is really hard) or play "serious" and care about every single issue from me and my mate, try to improve gameplay and win as much as possible. And that won't work if your mate is not nearly as good as you. Aaaand I won't play any random archon mode. Never.

40 euro is an okay price If I consider how much I have played sc2 and I will continue with it.

Hopefully alot more people will play it. I want the good old WoL times back where so many events and teamgames were going on.
1vs1 was not going well? Just ask one of the 20 people in your friendlist and go for teamgames and forgot about the lost matches.. that was pretty cool.
Edited by Pandora51 - 11/3/15 at 5:13am
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post #24797 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cybertox View Post

LOTV is releasing soon, anyone getting it or is excited about it? cause it looks like there is a huge lack of interest. Also, this thread got so boring due to constant balance discussions...

Heaven forbid there's discussions about design, where the game is going and other relavent things, other than "I don't like this game". rolleyes.gif During a stage of the game where radical changes were being made no less.
post #24798 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

Heaven forbid there's discussions about design, where the game is going and other relavent things, other than "I don't like this game". rolleyes.gif During a stage of the game where radical changes were being made no less.

I think the total lack of aftermath of any balance discussion led here constitutes to its overall boringness, not the discussion itself, which is pretty interesting smile.gif
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post #24799 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronnin426850 View Post

I think the total lack of aftermath of any balance discussion led here constitutes to its overall boringness, not the discussion itself, which is pretty interesting smile.gif

Blizzard disregards all balanced discussion everywhere. The only purpose is to learn more about the game, and to be snarky to people online smile.gif.
post #24800 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by mothergoose729 View Post

Blizzard disregards all balanced discussion everywhere. The only purpose is to learn more about the game, and to be snarky to people online smile.gif.

You don't know what you're talking about.








upsidedwnsmiley.gif
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