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[Official] Starcraft 2 Strategy & Discussion Thread - Page 2483

post #24821 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandora51 View Post

3 base or even 4 base against skytoss should be no issue.
Queens and spores against oracles and phoenix. Later Hydras.

Phoenix are for scouting, minor harass and even more important to prevent mutas. But if he is able to prevent you from taking a 4. base then there is something wrong.
If there's enough Phoenix you get permanently supply blocked. Unless you're making a spore forest, nothing will stop them from coming in and killing ovies and queens. I do this all the time to zerg players in my PvZ.

Then there's the rallying troops together which the Phoenix just mulch as they're in transit.
post #24822 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

If there's enough Phoenix you get permanently supply blocked. Unless you're making a spore forest, nothing will stop them from coming in and killing ovies and queens. I do this all the time to zerg players in my PvZ.

Then there's the rallying troops together which the Phoenix just mulch as they're in transit.

There is really no reason to let phoenix run a muck. Queens and spores are more than sufficient. If protoss is making 8, 10, 12, or more phoenix and zerg doesn't make hydras or corrupters, than that zerg only has them self to blame.
post #24823 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by mothergoose729 View Post

There is really no reason to let phoenix run a muck. Queens and spores are more than sufficient. If protoss is making 8, 10, 12, or more phoenix and zerg doesn't make hydras or corrupters, than that zerg only has them self to blame.

That's not how it works. Spores and queens do not stop Phoenix. Yes, they can kill Phoenix but only if the player is dense enough to stand in a spore/queen field. Phoenix dart in, kill what they need to and dart out. Since zerg supply flies and queens are high priority this makes phoenix very adept at picking apart the fundamentals of the zerg backbone. Unless you're a bad player Phoenix almost always trade well because losing 1 phoenix and scoring 1 queen kill and 2 ovie kills is always worth it.

Scoring ovie kills also prevents hydras from being made as you are now supply blocked. You're over simplifying things to an extreme here.

If there's hydras you either pick them off as they spawn/reinforce or you dance around them, doing what you were doing before while making a counter unit compsition at home. Like Chargelot Archon or any sort of Colossus deathball play.

Additionally you can attack a base and when the hydras are stretching out to defend it (usually the farthest base) hte phoenix can swoop in and pikc them off as they're moving to intercept or even support in battle with mass lift.

Corrupters are only great vs phoenix if the phoenix fight the corrupters and that's a vaccuum analogy, a protoss who makes pure phoenix is a protoss who is going to eventually lose.
Edited by DIYDeath - 11/6/15 at 9:56am
post #24824 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

That's not how it works. Spores and queens do not stop Phoenix. Yes, they can kill Phoenix but only if the player is dense enough to stand in a spore/queen field. Phoenix dart in, kill what they need to and dart out. Since zerg supply flies and queens are high priority this makes phoenix very adept at picking apart the fundamentals of the zerg backbone. Unless you're a bad player Phoenix almost always trade well because losing 1 phoenix and scoring 1 queen kill and 2 ovie kills is always worth it.

Scoring ovie kills also prevents hydras from being made as you are now supply blocked. You're over simplifying things to an extreme here.

If there's hydras you either pick them off as they spawn/reinforce or you dance around them, doing what you were doing before while making a counter unit compsition at home. Like Chargelot Archon or any sort of Colossus deathball play.

You can't stop phoenix from shaving off drones in the early game. You can deter them from having a field day, and you can prevent mass phoenix from getting much done in the mid and late game.
post #24825 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by mothergoose729 View Post

You can't stop phoenix from shaving off drones in the early game. You can deter them from having a field day, and you can prevent mass phoenix from getting much done in the mid and late game.

That's where you're getting things wrong. It's not about the drones. It's about the queens and ovies. Drones are irrelavent when you're supply blocking massively, consistently and building up a gateway/robo army behind it.

Drones are a high priority target but they are replacable and cheap to produce.

Queens are hard to replace and ovies are expensive/limit zerg growth. Drones should be the LAST thing Phoenixes go to kill.
post #24826 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

That's where you're getting things wrong. It's not about the drones. It's about the queens and ovies. Drones are irrelavent when you're supply blocking massively, consistently and building up a gateway/robo army behind it.

Drones are a high priority target but they are replacable and cheap to produce.

Queens are hard to replace and ovies are expensive. Drones should be the LAST thing Phoenixes go to kill.

You shouldn't lose more than one or two queens or overlords to a single stargate phoenix opening. If you do you ****ed up. Its that simple.
post #24827 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by mothergoose729 View Post

You shouldn't lost more than one or two queens or overlords to a single stargate phoenix opening. If you do you ****ed up. Its that simple.

Who opens single stargate phoenix? If you're making phoenix, you need to pump them. 2 stargates off of 2 bases with a fleet beacon for the upgrade.

When you attack there should be 8-12 Phoenix whith range which is more than enough to ignore spores, snipe multiple queens and constantly kill ovies. After those 12, provided you're using them correctly, you do not make more. You change to a ground unit composition off of gateways, the ups you should have been getting all game long+the tech you get behind the phoenix will counter the obvious tech switch to hydras, make corrupters irrelavent and laugh at the reactionary spore forests.

I don't think you know how to use phoenix properly dude. It's about priority targets and forcing hard counters while buying yourself time to hard counter the hard counter.
When there's 36+ drones obviously drones are not the priority.
Edited by DIYDeath - 11/6/15 at 10:06am
post #24828 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

Who opens single stargate phoenix? If you're making phoenix, you need to pump them. 2 stargates off of 2 bases with a fleet beacon for the upgrade.

When you attack there should be 8-12 Phoenix whith range which is more than enough to ignore spores, snipe multiple queens and constantly kill ovies. After those 12, provided you're using them correctly, you do not make more. You change to a ground unit composition off of gateways, the ups you should have been getting all game long+the tech you get behind the phoenix will counter the obvious tech switch to hydras, make corrupters irrelavent and laugh at the reactionary spore forests.

I don't think you know how to use phoenix properly dude. It's about priority targets and forcing hard counters while buying yourself time to hard counter the hard counter.
When there's 36+ drones obviously drones are not the priority.

We aren't talking about the same build. Phoenix openers are different from double stargate phoenix. Phoenix openers are a common if antiquated macro startegy while double stargate is not as standard.

The same formula applies though. Spores + queens will get you to hydras or corrupters. You just have to build more of them. You still shouldn't lose more than couple queens and your scouting overlords.
post #24829 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by mothergoose729 View Post

We aren't talking about the same build. Phoenix openers are different from double stargate phoenix. Phoenix openers are a common if antiquated macro startegy while double stargate is not as standard.

The same formula applies though. Spores + queens will get you to hydras or corrupters. You just have to build more of them. You still shouldn't lose more than couple queens and your scouting overlords.

Then you've never vs'd someone who uses phoenixes properly. Have you ever vs'd someone who phoenix focuses fire to kill ovies around corrupters and not attack the corrupters, dancing around their range?

Have you ever vs'd someone who darts in with the sole intent of sniping queens and ovies and will not attack drones? What about phoenix play that holds a reinforcing army while chargelots snipe a base?

Phoenix are about decent micro and good decision making. If you have excellent micro, it won't make up for the awful decision making as you're not prioritizing your targets properly and thus are wasting your investment in phoenix.

Have you ever vs'd someone who splits off damaged phoenix to put them in the back of the phoenix ball, or splits their phoenix into two groups and then micros both of them?

All of these things are what constitutes good phoenix use in PvZ.
Edited by DIYDeath - 11/6/15 at 10:18am
post #24830 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

Then you've never vs'd someone who uses phoenixes properly. Have you ever vs'd someone who phoenix focuses fire to kill ovies around corrupters and not attack the corrupters, dancing around their range?

Have you ever vs'd someone who darts in with the sole intent of sniping queens and ovies and will not attack drones? What about phoenix play that holds a reinforcing army while chargelots snipe a base?

Phoenix are about decent micro and good decision making. If you have excellent micro, it won't make up for the awful decision making as you're not prioritizing your targets properly and thus are wasting your investment in phoenix.

I have played my fair share of zerg and watched hundreds of pro games. Throughout the course of the game you are going to continue to lose things to phoenix and there isn't much you can do to stop it. There is no reason phoenixs should do crippling damage at any stage. That is my point.

When playing against mass phoenix there is a progression that happens.

Early game a protoss that is really focusing on getting them out will move up to around ten before zerg can get lair tech. If a protoss has 10 phoenixes, queens with transfuse and spores is enough to prevent them from doing too much damage.

In the mid game a protoss that is really gung ho on phoenix might get as many as 14. At 14 phoenix, zerg should have a two dozen hydras or about an equivalent number of corrupters. With your queens and spores in addition to your units, that is more than enough to hold off reasonable number of phoenix on three bases.

Going into the late game things get trickier, because you are more spread out. A good protoss won't ever make more than 14 or so phoenix because their utility drops off fast. In the event that they do, one set of good change fungals can very quickly win zerg the game. Corrupters are still a good counter, even if they aren't as fast. Queens are too slow and spores hardly matter at this point, so you have to use your army and you have to watch the minimap.
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