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post #24831 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by mothergoose729 View Post

I have played my fair share of zerg and watched hundreds of pro games. Throughout the course of the game you are going to continue to lose things to phoenix and there isn't much you can do to stop it. There is no reason phoenixs should do crippling damage at any stage. That is my point.

When playing against mass phoenix there is a progression that happens.

Early game a protoss that is really focusing on getting them out will move up to around ten before zerg can get lair tech. If a protoss has 10 phoenixes, queens with transfuse and spores is enough to prevent them from doing too much damage.

In the mid game a protoss that is really gung ho on phoenix might get as many as 14. At 14 phoenix, zerg should have a two dozen hydras or about an equivalent number of corrupters. With your queens and spores in addition to your units, that is more than enough to hold off reasonable number of phoenix on three bases.

Going into the late game things get trickier, because you are more spread out. A good protoss won't ever make more than 14 or so phoenix because their utility drops off fast. In the event that they do, one set of good change fungals can very quickly win zerg the game. Corrupters are still a good counter, even if they aren't as fast. Queens are too slow and spores hardly matter at this point, so you have to use your army and you have to watch the minimap.

Chain fungal requires the 1st fungal to hit which isn't really something you want to rely on vs units as fast as a phoenix.
If queens are transfusing to keep stuff alive the answer is simple: pick up all the queens so they can't transfuse. You'll have the energy since you're not picking up drones. Same reasoning applies vs hydras. Because hydras will spawn at different bases you can fly in and pick them off.

Hydras only work vs phoenix once you get enough to stop caring about the lift.

I agree, 14 phoenix is really the most you'd ever get regardless if you re-make them or not. Anymore is just overkill and those resources should be put into a ground army transition (like my favorite Chargelot - Archon - Dark Templar or High Templar, DT snipe buildings, chargelots pin and archons, made from DT or HT, depending on how much gas you have banked - bring the splash).

Frankly, most pros don't know what a phoenix is for, they use them improperly vs everything but direct combat units.
For example, I have never seen a pro snipe the 3rd or 4th, leaving the 4th or 5th alive behind phoenix harass and then attack the base you left alone, using phoenix to pick off the units moving to intercept the smaller force, which are probably going to be hydras that are strung out in a line.

Nor have I seen pros do this when they're attacking multiple positions with smaller squads of chargelots or even DT. There's huge misconceptions floating around on how to properly use a phoenix. Phoenix are about preventing zerg growth, not killing their economy, you use that momentum to hard counter while the zerg is stunted.

People could learn a lot by watching Bisu's DT Corsair in BW, the principal is similar - and it carries over well into sc2.
post #24832 of 25319
Does anybody even go mass oracle?

You can counter mass phoenix with speedlings, he can't have that much of a ground force if he masses phoenix, and lift is useless against lings.

If he masses oracle, mutas. If he masses both phoenix and oracle, hydras. If he has equal phoenix, oracle and ground stuff, banked infestor + roach hydra? Maybe?
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post #24833 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

Chain fungal requires the 1st fungal to hit which isn't really something you want to rely on vs units as fast as a phoenix.
If queens are transfusing to keep stuff alive the answer is simple: pick up all the queens so they can't transfuse. You'll have the energy since you're not picking up drones. Same reasoning applies vs hydras. Because hydras will spawn at different bases you can fly in and pick them off.

Hydras only work vs phoenix once you get enough to stop caring about the lift.

I agree, 14 phoenix is really the most you'd ever get regardless if you re-make them or not. Anymore is just overkill and those resources should be put into a ground army transition (like my favorite Chargelot - Archon - Dark Templar or High Templar, DT snipe buildings, chargelots pin adn archons, made from DT or HT, depending on how much gas you have banked - bring the splash).

Frankly, most pros don't know what a phoenix is for, they use them improperly vs everything but direct combat units.
For example, I have never seen a po snipe the 3rd or 4th, leaving the 4th or 5th alive behind phoenix harass and then attack the base you left alone, using phoenix to pick off the units moving to intercept the smaller force, which are probably going to be hydras that are strung out in a line.

Nor have I seen pros do this when they're attacking multiple positions with smaller squads of chargelots or even DT. There's huge misconceptions floating around on how to properly use a phoenix. Phoenix are about preventing zerg growth, not killing their economy, you use that momentum to hard counter while the zerg is stunted.

Well if you pick up six queen with 7 phoenix while on top of a spore you have a problem. Timing is what matters here.

Pros have used phoenixes in ways you have never imagined. The problem is really simple; stargate focused openers are really vulnerable to hydra timings, and it is very difficult to for the protoss to ever get a third and fourth base. In the late game, with zerg massively ahead in economy and with a huge bank, fungals, spore forests, and massive creep spread are serious issues.

A much better startegy for protoss is to open stargate, use an oracle for harrass and scouting and to help secure a third base against ling timings, and then to go into single robo collossus and put pressure on the zerg before hive tech. In the late game colossi, archons, high templar and void rays, perhaps going into tempest to counter broodlords, is much more effective and plays to the weakness of zerg. For the protoss, timing is more important than composition. It isn't about what units you build, its when you have them and how you use them. Double stargate openings don't work as well because they don't slow the zerg down enough.
post #24834 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by mothergoose729 View Post

Well if you pick up six queen with 7 phoenix while on top of a spore you have a problem. Timing is what matters here.

So is proper decision making. You don't attack 6 queens with less than 10 Phoenix because it's a losing battle.
Quote:
Pros have used phoenixes in ways you have never imagined. The problem is really simple; stargate focused openers are really vulnerable to hydra timings, and it is very difficult to for the protoss to ever get a third and fourth base. In the late game, with zerg massively ahead in economy and with a huge bank, fungals, spore forests, and massive creep spread are serious issues.

That's a strategy issue. If you're letting the zerg get away with uncontrolled growth in the early game then yeah, bad things happen and that's poor decision making on the protoss side of things.
Quote:
A much better startegy for protoss is to open stargate, use an oracle for harrass and scouting and to help secure a third base against ling timings, and then to go into single robo collossus and put pressure on the zerg before hive tech. In the late game colossi, archons, high templar and void rays, perhaps going into tempest to counter broodlords, is much more effective and plays to the weakness of zerg. For the protoss, timing is more important than composition. It isn't about what units you build, its when you have them and how you use them. Double stargate openings don't work as well because they don't slow the zerg down enough.

FFE, 1 pylon+1 cannon to block the nat/deny any drones that want to expand elsewhere/early warning. Wall the nat off with fat buildings like gateways, cannon behind it while chronoing out probes steadily.

By time zerg expands you have a massive economy lead, roaches won't break a well implemented wall and bane bust all-ins fail vs gateway/forge walls. Scout with a suicide zealot every now and then, adapt accordingly, watch out of nydus play and ninja bases while getting your stargate play ready and ups/tech.

PvZ is about denial of growth, unit composition is irrelavent as long as you can keep denying the zerg growth enough to create timing windows for whatever you feel like doing. In this instance phenix just create a larger timing window by preventing further growth and forcing hard counters.

I'd love to see pros using phoenixes properly. The best I think Ive seen is phoenix lifting friendly key units to save them from banelings (lifting banes is usually a bad idea since they'll damage air units at that point). Other than that it's been typical zig zag micro, kiting at max range, darting in and killing drones when drone kills are irrelavent - or rushed phoenix which is way too much of a pidgeon hole for the investment to not be gimmicky. Have any examples?
post #24835 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronnin426850 View Post

Does anybody even go mass oracle?

In LotV, yes. In HotS. Not if they want to win xD.
post #24836 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

So is proper decision making. You don't attack 6 queens with less than 10 Phoenix because it's a losing battle.

So there is no issue for the zerg to defend early phoenix? Yes right and at the time the protoss has 10+ phoenix the zerg has hydras already. So if the zerg knows what to do there is no issue at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

That's a strategy issue. If you're letting the zerg get away with uncontrolled growth in the early game then yeah, bad things happen and that's poor decision making on the protoss side of things.
FFE, 1 pylon+1 cannon to block the nat/deny any drones that want to expand elsewhere/early warning. Wall the nat off with fat buildings like gateways, cannon behind it while chronoing out probes steadily.

If you do alot damage in the early game or block expansions long enough you can do whatever you want. Canon into immortal push is even better.

Pool first into 3 hatches works great for zerg and you don't have a big chance to deny that in a proper macro game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

By time zerg expands you have a massive economy lead, roaches won't break a well implemented wall and bane bust all-ins fail vs gateway/forge walls. Scout with a suicide zealot every now and then, adapt accordingly, watch out of nydus play and ninja bases while getting your stargate play ready and ups/tech.

PvZ is about denial of growth, unit composition is irrelavent as long as you can keep denying the zerg growth enough to create timing windows for whatever you feel like doing. In this instance phenix just create a larger timing window by preventing further growth and forcing hard counters.

I'd love to see pros using phoenixes properly. The best I think Ive seen is phoenix lifting friendly key units to save them from banelings (lifting banes is usually a bad idea since they'll damage air units at that point). Other than that it's been typical zig zag micro, kiting at max range, darting in and killing drones when drone kills are irrelavent - or rushed phoenix which is way too much of a pidgeon hole for the investment to not be gimmicky. Have any examples?

Phoenix are for scouting and preventing mutas. Not for preventing further growth. Otherwise the zerg is just bad.
It is possible to play a straight up macro game against zerg. French style is a good example.

Progamers are using phoenixes to the right extend already. Banelings are not relevant in a pvz. There are exceptions but thats it.
Edited by Pandora51 - 11/6/15 at 11:42am
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post #24837 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandora51 View Post

So there is no isse for the zerg to defend early phoenix? Yes right and at the time the protoss has 10+ phoenix the zerg has hydras already. So if the zerg knows what to do there is no issue at all.
If you do alot damage in the early game or block expansions long enough you can do whatever you want. Canon into immortal push is even better.

Can't look at things in a bubble context. If the zerg already has hydras and you didn't scout it - and adjust. That's a l2p issue generated from trying to execute a plan that has been hard countered.
Quote:
Pool first into 3 hatches works great for zerg and you don't have a big chance to deny that in a proper macro game.

Maybe in lower leauges. When you start vsing daimond and a protoss sees that you lose because they'll turtle up to deny any early harass then counter your greedy expansions by bum rusing you.
Quote:
Phoenix are for scouting and preventing mutas. Not for preventing further growth. Otherwise the zerg is just bad.

Not even remotely close to true. Overlords fly, queens are pivotal for larva production. My hard drive just failed, not sure if I can recover the replay but this was something that happened last game. 200+ apm zerg got thrashed by phoenix chargelot dt archon after getting supply blocked over and over then luring him into making mutas by purposely letting 1/2 my phoenix die when I scouted spire.
Quote:
It is possible to play a straight up macro game against zerg. French style is a good example.

Yes it is but that's not really what the discussion is about currently. The discussion is about how to properly use phoenix, which most people don't.
Quote:
Progamers are using phoenixes to the right extend already.

Progamers in general are not using phoenix properly. Not to their full extent anyhow. Do they micro them well? Yes. Do they formulate ways to make phoenix relavent past their shelf life, when they've been hard countered. Not often unless it's support in a battle.
Quote:
Banelings are not relevant in a pvz. There are exceptions but thats it.

If you're making lots of chargelots as a mineral dump banelings become relavent.
post #24838 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

Can't look at things in a bubble context. If the zerg already has hydras and you didn't scout it - and adjust. That's a l2p issue generated from trying to execute a plan that has been hard countered.

That isn't what he was talking about.

If a zerg makes a lot of hydras off three bases they are doing almost exactly what they planned to do anyway. If a protoss transitions out of stargate play after committing to two stargates and all those phoenixes that early they are much worse off than if they have not made the stargates at all.

There is an ebb and flow to different builds. You can always build different units, but you can't get the time back you spent building the wrong units. Time is the most valuable resource in starcraft 2. You lose a lot of time as protoss when you commit that heavily to stargate that early.
Quote:
Maybe in lower leauges. When you start vsing daimond and a protoss sees that you lose because they'll turtle up to deny any early harass then counter your greedy expansions by bum rusing you.

That thought isn't coherent. A fast three base for zerg is the most standard part of the ZvP meta. There are dozens of two base timings a protoss can execute, and all of them are capable of being stopped by a three base zerg if they scout well and execute.
Quote:
Not even remotely close to true. Overlords fly, queens are pivotal for larva production. My hard drive just failed, not sure if I can recover the replay but this was something that happened last game. 200+ apm zerg got thrashed by phoenix chargelot dt archon after getting supply blocked over and over then luring him into making mutas by purposely letting 1/2 my phoenix die when I scouted spire.

As I have been trying to explain to you for some time now, a zerg shouldn't lose very much to phoenix harass.

A phoenix + zealot charge + archon is a powerful timing based style that was popular for a time. It has some serious weakness though, namely protoss has to do critical damage to zerg early, because if they don't zerg will just roll over protoss with three base roach/hydra.
Quote:
Yes it is but that's not really what the discussion is about currently. The discussion is about how to properly use phoenix, which most people don't.
Progamers in general are not using phoenix properly. Not to their full extent anyhow. Do they micro them well? Yes. Do they formulate ways to make phoenix relavent past their shelf life, when they've been hard countered. Not often unless it's support in a battle.
If you're making lots of chargelots as a mineral dump banelings become relavent.

Pro players use phoenixes to their fullest capability. You aren't the first person to play this game. The reason protoss aren't more aggressive with phoenixes is:

1) They are expensive. If you lose one or two phoenixes for a queen it just isn't worth it
2) Timing. A zerg that plays properly is always going to have enough stuff to make going full yolo unattractive
3) Strategy. Protoss typically use phoenix for harrass and scouting. Their job isn't to win the game outright.
4) Timing again. After a certain point a protoss needs to transition out of air units in order to get the units they need to protect their third base.
Edited by mothergoose729 - 11/6/15 at 12:03pm
post #24839 of 25319
Pretty much what mothergoose729 said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

Maybe in lower leauges. When you start vsing daimond and a protoss sees that you lose because they'll turtle up to deny any early harass then counter your greedy expansions by bum rusing you.

Which deny of early harass do you mean? The Zerg goes 15 pool 15 hatch. After a while 3rd hatch.
If the protoss wants to punish that in the early game he needs to go all-in.
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