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post #24841 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by mothergoose729 View Post

That isn't what he was talking about.

If a zerg makes a lot of hydras off three bases they are doing almost exactly what they planned to do anyway. If a protoss transitions out of stargate play after committing to two stargates and all those phoenixes that early they are much worse off than if they have not made the stargates at all.

A zerg who plans to make a lot of hydras that early is making themselves vulnerable to colossus, archons and storms. So I don't buy it. Hydra Roach is not a smart idea when there's very easy to get hard counters to it for protoss to employ. Espeically if you get too many hydras.
Quote:
There is an ebb and flow to different builds. You can always build different units, but you can't get the time back you spent building the wrong units. Time is the most valuable resource in starcraft 2. You lose a lot of time as protoss when you commit that heavily to stargate that early.

Which pays off by forcing a unit composition you plan to counter and by allowing you to delay the zerg's growth by killing their larva production and supply. Phoenix buy time to create timing windows. How do you not get this? There's entire strategies built off of this concept.
Quote:
That thought isn't coherent. A fast three base for zerg is the most standard part of the ZvP meta. There are dozens of two base timings a protoss can execute, and all of them are capable of being stopped by a three base zerg if they scout well and execute.
As I have been trying to explain to you for some time now, a zerg shouldn't lose very much to phoenix harass.

That's a load of bull. I'm calling you on it because I know it's not true. It forces zerg to react very specifically, it causes spores to be made and if you choose your argets properly you can always score damage.
Quote:
A phoenix + zealot charge + archon is a powerful timing based style that was popular for a time. It has some serious weakness though, namely protoss has to do critical damage to zerg early, because if they don't zerg will just roll over protoss with three base roach/hydra.

I don't want to be that guy but you're being captain obvious here. Of course the phoenix have to find damage. If you commit significantly to something, be it a timing attack, harass or whatever and it's not effective you're in trouble.
Quote:
Pro players use phoenixes to their fullest capability. You aren't the first person to play this game. The reason protoss aren't more aggressive with phoenixes is:

I am apparently the 1st one to think about using phoenix to delay zerg growth and force specific, very predictable counters though. Like I said, this isn't a new concept. There are strategies built around this. The game isn't just about build orders. It's about a dynamic relationship between you and your opponent. If you can dictate that relationship you can do all sorts of funky stuff.
Quote:
1) They are expensive. If you lose one or two phoenixes for a queen it just isn't worth it

You vastly underestimate how important queens are. Vastly. Less queens=less injects=less larva=less units.
Quote:
2) Timing. A zerg that plays properly is always going to have enough stuff to make going full yolo unattractive

You dictate the game state, you don't yolo. You should have exess minerals left over to adapt with as well as reasonable amounts of gas.
Quote:
3) Strategy. Protoss typically use phoenix for harrass and scouting. Their job isn't to win the game outright.

Metas are defined by people who don't follow trends. This is nonsense and you know it. Typically doesn't matter.
Quote:
4) Timing again. After a certain point a protoss needs to transition out of air units in order to get the units they need to protect their third base.

Unless you've massively over commited to phoenixes and are extremely sloppy with your macro you will have thousands of minerals to do this with over the course of the game.

You really, really don't understand how this works. SC2 at a higher level of play is not about as I'm going to call it "PIKACHU, I CHOOSE YOU". It's about countering your opponent. If you can dictate what your opponent does then you make life incredibly easy for yourself.

This is the difference between players who just follow and players who innovate. There are lots of followers, even in he pro scene. There are few who innovate. sOs is an example of a pro protoss player who innovates and does well doing it.
Edited by DIYDeath - 11/6/15 at 1:45pm
post #24842 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

A zerg who plans to make a lot of hydras that early is making themselves vulnerable to colossus, archons and storms. So I don't buy it. Hydra Roach is not a smart idea when there's very easy to get hard counters to it for protoss to employ. Espeically if you get too many hydras.

A protoss cannot go double stargate and get collossi and get sentries before zerg hits with a roach hydra force. It just isn't possible. If zerg builds a bunch of units and then sits on their hands for three minutes anything is possible.
Quote:
Which pays off by forcing a unit composition you plan to counter and by allowing you to delay the zerg's growth by killing their larva production and supply. Phoenix buy time to create timing windows. How do you not get this? There's entire strategies built off of this concept.

There are single stargate openers into two base collossi timings that try and do just that. Those builds don't work off double stargate. You cannot afford storm and hight templar and an army to support them on two base with constant phoenix production at any reasonable timing, it just isn't possible.
Quote:
That's a load of bull. I'm calling you on it because I know it's not true. It forces zerg to react very specifically, it causes spores to be made and if you choose your argets properly you can always score damage.

That isn't what I said. Read it again.
Quote:
I don't want to be that guy but you're being captain obvious here. Of course the phoenix have to find damage. If you commit significantly to something, be it a timing attack, harass or whatever and it's not effective you're in trouble.

You are referencing multiple builds and timings with no context. I have to infer what it is your are talking about in order to respond. A minute ago it was sky toss, then it was mass phoenix, and now you are talking about a single stargte build into chargelot archon. They aren't the same thing, btw. Pick one you would like to discuss.
Quote:
I am apparently the 1st one to think about using phoenix to delay zerg growth and force specific, very predictable counters though. Like I said, this isn't a new concept. There are strategies built around this. The game isn't just about build orders. It's about a dynamic relationship between you and your opponent. If you can dictate that relationship you can do all sorts of funky stuff.

A minute ago you said pro's don't know how to use phoenix. I don't disagree with what you say here, it only seems odd because you tone implies you have been saying that the whole time. You haven't.
Quote:
You vastly underestimate how important queens are. Vastly. Less queens=less injects=less larva=less units.

I "vastly underestimate" nothing. In context this comment makes no sense.
Quote:
You dictate the game state, you don't yolo. You should have exess minerals left over to adapt with as well as reasonable amounts of gas.

That is a red hearing. My point is that protoss cannot do significant damage to zerg without incurring significant damage themselves. You chose to interpret that as something completely unrelated. I can't respond to criticisms of points I didn't make.
Quote:
Metas are defined by people who don't follow trends. This is nonsense and you know it. Typically doesn't matter.
Unless you've massively over commited to phoenixes and are extremely sloppy with your macro you will have thousands of minerals to do this with over the course of the game.

You might be surprised to learn that strategy and meta are not the same thing.
Quote:
You really, really don't understand how this works. SC2 at a higher level of play is not about as I'm going to call it "PIKACHU, I CHOOSE YOU". It's about countering your opponent. If you can dictate what your opponent does then you make life incredibly easy for yourself.

In principle I don't disagree, but I am not sure what point you are trying to make. WHICH build, WHICH response, WHICH counters. Pick a strategy because over the course of this discussion you have reference no less than three distinctly different builds.
Quote:
This is the difference between players who just follow and players who innovate. There are lots of followers, even in he pro scene. There are few who innovate. sOs is an example of a pro protoss player who innovates and does well doing it.

Other than an attempt to pump up your ego or to slight mine, I am not sure what this has to do with anything we are talking about.
post #24843 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

A zerg who plans to make a lot of hydras that early is making themselves vulnerable to colossus, archons and storms. So I don't buy it. Hydra Roach is not a smart idea when there's very easy to get hard counters to it for protoss to employ. Espeically if you get too many hydras.
Which pays off by forcing a unit composition you plan to counter and by allowing you to delay the zerg's growth by killing their larva production and supply. Phoenix buy time to create timing windows. How do you not get this?

You saying it like the zerg is playing blind. The zerg can react aswell. If there are many phoenix the zerg will play something against it.
For example Ultra style has the advantage that you can defend with queens and spores while having lings on the map. Later you can get infestors. Ultras will counter Colossi and storm and so on.
And Hydra pushes are extremly strong. It can easily kill a 3 base toss.

Roach Hydra is not bad either. You can go into viper against colossi later on and the protoss has to counter it with HTs. But it totally depends on what the protoss is doing. If he is playing mass phoenix you don't build roach ling and go into mutas obviously .

It would be nice to concentrate about one build. First it started about phoenix as skytoss and now we are talking about phoenix, Colossi, HTs and Archons.
And it still stands: You shouldn't take critical damage from phoenix harassment as a zerg especially against skytoss. There are ways to prevent the damage and a good zerg is able to do so.
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post #24844 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandora51 View Post

You saying it like the zerg is playing blind. The zerg can react aswell. If there are many phoenix the zerg will play something against it.
For example Ultra style has the advantage that you can defend with queens and spores while having lings on the map. Later you can get infestors. Ultras will counter Colossi and storm and so on.
And Hydra pushes are extremly strong. It can easily kill a 3 base toss.

The zerg isn't playing blind but zerg only have so many ways to counter something like 2 stargate phenix play. Ultras are not viable at that stage of the game.
Quote:
Roach Hydra is not bad either. You can go into viper against colossi later on and the protoss has to counter it with HTs. But it totally depends on what the protoss is doing. If he is playing mass phoenix you don't build roach ling and go into mutas obviously .

You go mutas vs phoenix you auto lose. Phoenix decimate mutas.
Quote:
It would be nice to concentrate about one build. First it started about phoenix as skytoss and now we are talking about phoenix, Colossi, HTs and Archons.
And it still stands: You shouldn't take critical damage from phoenix harassment as a zerg especially against skytoss. There are ways to prevent the damage and a good zerg is able to do so.

Because it's a dynamic build, you attack with phoenix and force a counter. You then counter the counter and use deduction to assume to optimal path they'll be taking. Which is hydras. Infestors are too gas heavy and are bad on their own+are not good vs units fast enough to dodge fungals all day long, ultras don't work well when you can't afford to get the ups, the tech and have enough hydras to beat back phoenix, nevermind that immortals and void rays decimate them.

You're thinking in basic terms. Good strategies are incremental and can have aspects swapped out when the need arises. Bad ones are static build orders that are inflexible.

FFE into 2 stargate opener while you tech up to more gateway play or robo or even continue with stargate is a diverse strategy with modular components.
post #24845 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

The zerg isn't playing blind but zerg only have so many ways to counter something like 2 stargate phenix play. Ultras are not viable at that stage of the game.

I didn't say ultras against 2 stargate opener but ultra style which is something like lings with double upgrade. It is very versatile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

You go mutas vs phoenix you auto lose. Phoenix decimate mutas.

That is what I said. It was an example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

Because it's a dynamic build, you attack with phoenix and force a counter. You then counter the counter and use deduction to assume to optimal path they'll be taking. Which is hydras. Infestors are too gas heavy and are bad on their own+are not good vs units fast enough to dodge fungals all day long, ultras don't work well when you can't afford to get the ups, the tech and have enough hydras to beat back phoenix, nevermind that immortals and void rays decimate them.

You're thinking in basic terms. Good strategies are incremental and can have aspects swapped out when the need arises. Bad ones are static build orders that are inflexible.

FFE into 2 stargate opener while you tech up to more gateway play or robo or even continue with stargate is a diverse strategy with modular components.

Of course it is dynamic but we were talking about your unit composition in one of your games against pheonix from a skytoss! And as it seems you made the wrong units. Why don't you show us the replay?
Otherwise this will go on and on and on and on the same way. Phoenix and oracle will reck eversthing -> Spores and queens are the solution -> no not against 10+ Phoenix -> then hydra and propably infestor is the solution -> but colossi, HT and archon will counter it -> 10+ phoenix into colossi is not possible in time -> then the toss doesn't make 10 phoenix. Its dynamic -> okay then the zerg does not need hydras to defend the phoenix -> but then the toss will build more phoneix from two stargates -> yeah but then you build hydras -> yes and as a result you build colossi -> but we were talking about skytoss -> no the game is dynamic
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post #24846 of 25319
ambient occlusion now works (again) with sc2x64 with nvidia drivers 358.87
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post #24847 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirWaWa View Post

ambient occlusion now works (again) with sc2x64 with nvidia drivers 358.87

I never understood why anyone would want AO in an RTS like that, it's for added ambiance, but you have no actual ambiance anyway since you're in "god view". It just loads the GPU unnecessarily IMO.
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post #24848 of 25319
Speaking of sc2x64 is the performance better now?
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post #24849 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandora51 View Post

Speaking of sc2x64 is the performance better now?

Yeah its better now but not a huge difference when compared to 32 if any at all, its just that the updated 64 bit client does not perform as awfully as the initial 64 bit client.
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post #24850 of 25319
Atleast something. Thank you.
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