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[Official] Starcraft 2 Strategy & Discussion Thread - Page 2486

post #24851 of 25319
On a side note, Overwatch is not free biggrin.gif Blizz flopped hard, they will have a F2P mode 2 years from now, I guarantee it.
Edited by ronnin426850 - 11/7/15 at 9:28am
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post #24852 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandora51 View Post

I didn't say ultras against 2 stargate opener but ultra style which is something like lings with double upgrade. It is very versatile.

Double ground upgrades you mean? That doesn't help vs Skytoss. I'm confused on what you're trying to establish here.
Quote:
Of course it is dynamic but we were talking about your unit composition in one of your games against pheonix from a skytoss! And as it seems you made the wrong units.
Why don't you show us the replay?

Because there's no point, he turtled up and macro'd hard so I couldn't prevent it due to HotS turtle economy and massive Swarm Host nerf. It's not an issue with the units as much as it's a problem with a flawed economy model and a lack of reasonable AA for zerg in HotS vs a mobile unit. One spirals into the other. I was venting because nothing is more annoying than hearing "well just do this" when their suggestion isn't even remotely viable. telling someone to land money fungals on well controlled phoenix is like asking LotV Terran bio to beat mass Ultras with pure MMM.
Quote:
Otherwise this will go on and on and on and on the same way. Phoenix and oracle will reck eversthing -> Spores and queens are the solution -> no not against 10+ Phoenix -> then hydra and propably infestor is the solution -> but colossi, HT and archon will counter it ->

This part is right.
Quote:
10+ phoenix into colossi is not possible in time -> then the toss doesn't make 10 phoenix. Its dynamic ->

This par is not. You can easily go 10 phoenix into colossus on 2 base if your macro is decent around the 12-14 minute mark (phoenix will be done by 9).

I mention the strategy is dynamic because if there's no hydras you don't get colossus. If there's muta corrupter roach you get chargelot archon dt, etc, etc.

You counter the counter by dictating the viable counter to the zerg player.
post #24853 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

Because there's no point, he turtled up and macro'd hard so I couldn't prevent it due to HotS turtle economy and massive Swarm Host nerf. It's not an issue with the units as much as it's a problem with a flawed economy model and a lack of reasonable AA for zerg in HotS vs a mobile unit. One spirals into the other. I was venting because nothing is more annoying than hearing "well just do this" when their suggestion isn't even remotely viable. telling someone to land money fungals on well controlled phoenix is like asking LotV Terran bio to beat mass Ultras with pure MMM.

I agree Hots PvZ is pretty awful right now but you are assuming things based of this single game.

What did you try? Trying to break a 2 base toss with 2 bases? Thats exactly how it sounds to me. You need to go into 3 base. Fast 4th if you don't plan to do any agression.
And for the 12323th time phoenix shouldn't do critcal damage.

This is not LotV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

This par is not. You can easily go 10 phoenix into colossus on 2 base if your macro is decent around the 12-14 minute mark (phoenix will be done by 9).

I mention the strategy is dynamic because if there's no hydras you don't get colossus. If there's muta corrupter roach you get chargelot archon dt, etc, etc.

You counter the counter by dictating the viable counter to the zerg player.

Nopre not true. The zerg will destroy the protoss if going 10 phoenix into colossi on 2 base.
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post #24854 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandora51 View Post

I agree Hots PvZ is pretty awful right now but you are assuming things based of this single game.

Oh it's not a single game. I do the same b.s. to zerg all the time. I main z and p, I know both sides of he coin in this case.
Quote:
What did you try? Trying to break a 2 base toss with 2 bases? Thats exactly how it sounds to me. You need to go into 3 base. Fast 4th if you don't plan to do any agression.
And for the 12323th time phoenix shouldn't do critcal damage.

I did 4 base. I've beaten dai zergs on 8 base with 2 base doing this strategy before - but it depends on the unit composition. If I see hydras and I get something like Sentry Colossus VR behind the phoenix it's nearly impossible to lose unless you don't land your FF properly.
Quote:
This is not LotV.

If you think you need lotv to pull what I described off then your macro isn't that good. Use chrono on probes consistently and watch your influx of resources allow crazy 2 base all-ins.
Quote:
Nopre not true. The zerg will destroy the protoss if going 10 phoenix into colossi on 2 base.

If we're talking masters, yeah. Anything under and no. I have hundreds of games to the contrary.
post #24855 of 25319
What do you get for people in the ladder? A Zerg loosing with 8 bases against 2 can't be good. That is not a good example.
2 base all-ins and pushes are strong but NOT that strong.

This is exactly like your previous replays and vods where you trying to show a good strategy but your oponents are clearly not up to the task. For example the pure gateway composition against terran.

And like previously you won't change your opinion and argue against everything. No matter what. Mothergoose729 is not even trying anymore biggrin.gif
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post #24856 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandora51 View Post

What do you get for people in the ladder? A Zerg loosing with 8 bases against 2 can't be good. That is not a good example.
2 base all-ins and pushes are strong but NOT that strong.

This is exactly like your previous replays and vods where you trying to show a good strategy but your oponents are clearly not up to the task. For example the pure gateway composition against terran.

And like previously you won't change your opinion and argue against everything. No matter what. Mothergoose729 is not even trying anymore biggrin.gif

Well, when you sart beating korean masters and have players who aren't as good telling you what does and doesn't work - when you know better, when you have people analyzing things in a bubble context consistently, when you have people try to dictate uses of units in very simplistic terms and not considering how else they can cause damage - yeah, you start to not listen to others because they don't know what they're talking about.

I mean I had to frame the concept of a modular strategy how many times now? I had to point out that a reasonable amount of phoenix can snipe queens and ovies to consistently supply block and thus limit production/force mass spores...that tells me that a lot of people don't get the relationships units share and it's a reasonable asusmption. It's not like I'm being unreasonable here, I'm literally having to explain the same concepts over and over.

2 base certainly does beat 8 base if you force a counter like hydras and then mass a super hard counter to it.
You try over committing to roach hydra and then find out there's 6-8 3/3/3 colossus on the field with gateway support. No remax is going to save you at that point, you'd have to go all air - and corrupters can't shoot down/mutas are going to get kited infinitely by phoenix if you try that.

Perhaps I just need to stick to the TL forums for sc2 chat. I don't think you guys are completely up to par for in depth strategic analysis that requires considering several factors and the multiple events that happen when they interact - and how that relates to adjusting your strategy on the fly.

I don't mean to be pushy about it but you opened up that door by essentially implying I'm being unreasonably stubborn.
In this specific instance the issue isn't me, it's a lack of understanding from others.

That's all I have to say regarding this. I give up on you guys and sc2. I need to converse with people who can consider these factors.
Edited by DIYDeath - 11/7/15 at 2:31pm
post #24857 of 25319
There is still no proof from you are playing against high master and korean players. All games I have seen from you in the past were against bad players. Not being able to even play the most basic strats. And Im not the one who is talking about being master and beating korean masters.

And no like so many many times said phoenix shouldn't do critical damage. Phoenix will kill drones, ovis and propably queens but they should never be able to kill so many units that you fall behind for example with constant supply block.

2 base should NEVER win against 8 base. Even if the protoss is waiting for 200/200 and the zerg cannot get rid of his roach / hydra supply he can make vipers. This will counter gateway units and colossi and only HTs can counter vipers properly. You have to admit that Phoenix into Colossi + HTs on 2 base is pretty hard and even IF the protoss is able to do so the Zerg will trade off the army with roach/hydra/viper and remax with mutas or something else.
And no phoenix do not counter vipers.

Im not only implying you are unreasonably stubborn.. Im saying you are nreasonably stubborn.
Edited by Pandora51 - 11/7/15 at 4:35pm
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post #24858 of 25319
Amazing final. SoS killed it. P FTW! smile.gif
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post #24859 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronnin426850 View Post

On a side note, Overwatch is not free biggrin.gif Blizz flopped hard, they will have a F2P mode 2 years from now, I guarantee it.

For real. I'm not even going to bother with it now.





Also!

dat ending doh lol biggrin.gif
Edited by DoomDash - 11/7/15 at 8:01pm
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post #24860 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post

For real. I'm not even going to bother with it now.





Also!

dat ending doh lol biggrin.gif

HAHAHAHAHA biggrin.gif I liked the part about the Archon. Build time so long...
Edited by ronnin426850 - 11/8/15 at 4:40am
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