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post #4341 of 25319
Well guys there's a new kind of PvP cheese... 7pylon 8 gateway... lol. First zealot tries to take out your first pylon at all costs. Not recommended unless you feel really lucky.
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post #4342 of 25319
I hate ZvZ as well. One of the reasons I gave up on playing random. I used to not like TvT either though.

I think TvT has evolved a lot from what it used to be. At lower levels it's still pretty much just tank/viking race, but at higher levels it looks pretty entertaining. Just loook at GSL games.

By the way, how come no one commented on today's games yet?


I feel like boxer didn't really played at his full potential. Maybe he was scared to face fake boxer in the finals and risk being defeated by an impostor?

Anyway Foxer's TvZ seems to be much more solid than Boxer's so the finals are sure going to be interesting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazorbeam View Post
PvP has some pretty good diversity for a mirror match, I'd say. Common strats:
  • 2 Gate proxy
  • 4-5 gate T1 push
  • 3 Gate / Immortal / Colossus tech
  • Void ray push
  • DT rush (lol)
I like PvP just as much as any other PvX matchups. However 4 gate vs 4 gate can get pretty similar to ZvZ in style and pace. There's also:
  • 3 gate blink stalkers
  • korean 4 gate
  • korean 4 gate w/ stalkers
  • 3 gate / stargate
  • cannon rush
  • 2 gate/forge FE
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post #4343 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazorbeam View Post
Just like Doomdash I picked up a different race for 1v1 just because of ZvZ. In 1400+ diamond, games rarely go past 12 minutes. It's a bling/sling fest and the slightest mistake is GG. I understand that mistakes are what make games, but in PvP and TvT you can afford some mistakes without throwing the game.

In ZvZ, you can lose the game with 1 bad click. It's far too precarious and RNG based, you can lose to a complete noob if he's lucky.

PvP has some pretty good diversity for a mirror match, I'd say. Common strats:
  • 2 Gate proxy
  • 4-5 gate T1 push
  • 3 Gate / Immortal / Colossus tech
  • Void ray push
  • DT rush (lol)
You can lose to a click for any of the other races. One bad ff could mean GG if you have mostly stalkers against zealots or if you unseige and your opponent pushes, they'll catch you offguard and take your squad down. My point is, misclicking can be happen in any match-up regardless of the situation and can cause you to lose, so, it's not a valid point. Either way, if you misclick as Z, you can quickly rebuild your forces if you have the resources and larvae

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazorbeam View Post
You'll get owned with this muta strat in diamond. Only players with inhuman micro can manage to use these kind of builds.

Unsieging tanks is done at the 20 minute mark or whatever, and you can unsiege a few at a time.

A single baneling can blow up an entire zerg army 10 minutes in and finish the match (actually this is how it usually goes down). Slings and blings on creep move REALLY fast so mistakes are easy to make.
A single bane will NOT blow up an entire zerg army unless your whole army is slings and even then, I bait banes to attack by send a sling to them at which point I've seen my opponent lost a couple of his

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhed5 View Post
I hate all mirror matchups, I do pretty well mindyou.
While I used to hate ZvsZ, I think I'm starting to like them, albeit I haven't had one in a while probably since I only took out Steppes of War map. Mostly T with the occassional Protoss which is annoying now

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
Yes I'm telling you that ZvZ is garbage. TvT is like the most methodical slowly played out game. People use nukes to move siege tank lines and hit, ect. Air battles for vision... gets nuts. No 1 base baneling bs. Baneling ruins ZvZ for me. Like I've been saying for ages I just hate the baneling.
It's not, it's just not your style is all. Air battles are just as nuts with Z due to muta speed, mutas vs mutas is the same as vikings vs vikings. If anything, micro battles are as intensive if not more so than PvsP and TvsT due to the fact that banes are good against slings, blings and hydras Only reason you hate it is because more people are using them in diamond and you haven't find the perfect strat as a T against it, although, I still think MMM+tanks is more than enough especially due to a tanks splash

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevaziah View Post
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. I hate TvT more than I hate . I would rather have ZvZ all day than ONE TvT. With ZvZ, you got quick awesomely played micro war or race to muta war or mineral line box (with evo chambers and spawning pool and queen) than the LOOONG ass terran wall ins with tanks and turrets or thors or the straight up tank+viking mass up and and slow crawl for EVERY FREEKING INCH OF THE FREEKIN MAP. The game gets boring quick. and for saying that one small mistake cant cost you? well, if you unsiege at the wrong time bam, ur gone. Not only is it boring, but the stress level is just as high just by anxiety alone.

Z v Z is a lot more ACTION oriented than TvT, which is why I play this game.

Maybe its because i play random that I fell this way, but to be honest my TvT matchup may not be the greatest since it doesnt happen very often (when im terran, my opponent is usually protoss) but about 99% of the times, this is what happens in TVT

1. Go marine marauders with stim and take out your opponent quick with a drop or a timing push before he gets siege mode

2. BE the one who makes siege tanks and vikings and fight for air superiority while advancing with a handfull of tanks. Eventually when you get more vikings in the air, take out his, THEN proceed to land them in the tank line or in the other`s base. (most maps encourage this than others).

booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooring.....
I have to agree with this perfectly. I'm moving to random soon and I find that ZvsZ are much more action oriented even at my league than TvsT. Maybe at the higher league, TvsT is on the same level as ZvsZ for actions but not sure.
Either way, my first TvsT which I won, involved me using a tank+small MM to take out his exp and box him in. I kept the pressure and build a thor then went in against his MMM+tanks, won the battle and he GG'd Point is, TvsT and ZvsZ are alike in the strategy departments, but, ZvsZ is more action oriented due to how fast units can be made along with how much micro is needed to prevent them from dying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
Well since you have very little TvT experience, and you are in Platinum ( high or not ), I'm just going to say that you probably aren't familiar enough / good enough at the match up to know how good it is. I play 100% Terran in ladder, and I've had plenty of TvT's, and the match up is far far more dynamic than any other mirror match up period. PvP has recently been coming close, and has gotten much better... but if you like ZvZ you probably just like the game for different reasons than I do.

Go watch Jinro vs ManOfOneway on delta right now, that game is like a work of frickin art.
All pro game, including mirror images are exciting to watch, let's leave it as that

Quote:
Originally Posted by poroboszcz View Post
I hate ZvZ as well. One of the reasons I gave up on playing random. I used to not like TvT either though.

I think TvT has evolved a lot from what it used to be. At lower levels it's still pretty much just tank/viking race, but at higher levels it looks pretty entertaining. Just loook at GSL games.

By the way, how come no one commented on today's games yet?

I like PvP just as much as any other PvX matchups. However 4 gate vs 4 gate can get pretty similar to ZvZ in style and pace. There's also:
  • 3 gate blink stalkers
  • korean 4 gate
  • korean 4 gate w/ stalkers
  • 3 gate / stargate
  • cannon rush
  • 2 gate/forge FE
I disagree since in Silver, it's becoming more MMM+tank push which is really hard to deal with if you don't have the army for it. If you are T, at least you can put down your own tanks to prevent them from pushing up. If you are P or Z, then it's much harder to deal with due to the tanks damage. There are probably some similar strats for Z, but, since, some of our units take too long to tech to, we are limited on what to use which is why most use slings+mutas, hydras/roaches or slings+ultras

Quote:
Originally Posted by thiru View Post
Well guys there's a new kind of PvP cheese... 7pylon 8 gateway... lol. First zealot tries to take out your first pylon at all costs. Not recommended unless you feel really lucky.
Interesting, really cheesy move though
    
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post #4344 of 25319
I know gear doesn't make you better (usually) but i'm just curious what do some of the best players use? (mainly things like monitor size, keyboard, mouse and headsets)

just interested after hearing in one thread that one of the best players uses a random microsoft mouse even though he/she is sponsored by steelseries and could have any mouse from them for free...
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post #4345 of 25319
Bifan is right. That`s why I went to random. More fun, more dynamic and its not always the same builds everytime. I probably play 3 to 5 1v1 per day and I dont want them to be the same thing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
Well since you have very little TvT experience, and you are in Platinum ( high or not ), I'm just going to say that you probably aren't familiar enough / good enough at the match up to know how good it is.

Go watch Jinro vs ManOfOneway on delta right now, that game is like a work of frickin art.
Quote:
Originally Posted by poroboszcz View Post
I think TvT has evolved a lot from what it used to be. At lower levels it's still pretty much just tank/viking race, but at higher levels it looks pretty entertaining. Just loook at GSL games.
Wait, what?
ZvZ IS a lot more dynamic at the platinium and low level diamond and yes, at lower levels, some things may work that dont work at higher level of play. Look at most players on the thread here. How many of them are diamond? maybe what, 3 or 4? But even yourself Dash, can you honestly say that every player you played against in TvT at your level is capable of most of the tactics we see in TvT games streamed by Husky, HD, Day9 or Tasteless? At the end of the day, we are here to help eachother become better players AND improve make this game more fun/interactive/flavorful , and we become better by improving on where we are at the moment and going step by step.

Im not by ANY MEANS saying TvT doesnt have the potential to be as varied and flavorful, im just saying that by sheer reality, player pool experience, people are a lot less creative because the race has been played soo long and after soo many matches, some strats just get stricken off the list while others move up(cause lets face it, before the reaper nerf there was a LOT more Terran players at my level, BARELY any zerg, and i can probably count on ONE hand how many random players I had played against between august- October)
Edited by Nevaziah - 11/5/10 at 9:14am
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post #4346 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sainesk View Post
I know gear doesn't make you better (usually) but i'm just curious what do some of the best players use? (mainly things like monitor size, keyboard, mouse and headsets)

just interested after hearing in one thread that one of the best players uses a random microsoft mouse even though he/she is sponsored by steelseries and could have any mouse from them for free...
It's really, really just a matter of comfort. The only way to find out is try stuff.
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post #4347 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sainesk View Post
I know gear doesn't make you better (usually) but i'm just curious what do some of the best players use? (mainly things like monitor size, keyboard, mouse and headsets)

just interested after hearing in one thread that one of the best players uses a random microsoft mouse even though he/she is sponsored by steelseries and could have any mouse from them for free...
I use the logitech mini-optical mouse and samsung dt-35 keyboard. I believe both are discontinued but back in 2004 this was the standard used by majority of the pros. I know Fruit Dealer and Boxer use Filco Majestouch.
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post #4348 of 25319
Yeah quite a few pros use mechanical keyboards.. Sen and Gretorp use the Steelseries 6v2 and someone else uses a Das Model S.
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post #4349 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevaziah View Post
Bifan is right. That`s why I went to random. More fun, more dynamic and its not always the same builds everytime. I probably play 3 to 5 1v1 per day and I dont want them to be the same thing!

Wait, what?
ZvZ IS a lot more dynamic at the platinium and low level diamond and yes, at lower levels, some things may work that dont work at higher level of play. Look at most players on the thread here. How many of them are diamond? maybe what, 3 or 4? But even yourself Dash, can you honestly say that every player you played against in TvT at your level is capable of most of the tactics we see in TvT games streamed by Husky, HD, Day9 or Tasteless? At the end of the day, we are here to help eachother become better players AND improve make this game more fun/interactive/flavorful , and we become better by improving on where we are at the moment and going step by step.
Who's Bifan? Do I know him? You pretty much hit the nail on the head. That's the reason I'm going random as well. I love Zerg to death and since I've probably played >125 matches with them(practice+league+custom) I find that they come more naturally to me and I just feel comfortable playing them, however, I find that concentrating on one race, while might help you improve quicker, means that you are pretty limited in terms of strategies utilized and playing random gives you a good idea of other races strats and how to counter them. So far, I find that I picked up Terran quite easily(1vs1 only, still horrible at 2vs2+, lol) while for Protoss, I'm having a harder time mostly since I can't ff well enough and don't usually have a strategy in mind, although, I haven't had any 1vs1 yet, only played some customs against some diamonds, so, that's likely why

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevaziah View Post
Im not by ANY MEANS saying TvT doesnt have the potential to be as varied and flavorful, im just saying that by sheer reality, player pool experience, people are a lot less creative because the race has been played soo long and after soo many matches, some strats just get stricken off the list while others move up(cause lets face it, before the reaper nerf there was a LOT more Terran players at my level, BARELY any zerg, and i can probably count on ONE hand how many random players I had played against between august- October)
I have no clue what this tank/viking combo is myself, I've never seen it before in my league. Most of my T opponents used to go MM, followed by more MMM and then add in some thors or other units for a different unit composition(marines+thors, marine+hellions+thors, etc....). Recently, I've seen more MM+tank push which IMO are much harder to stop as a zerg due to tanks one-shotting slings and marauders+tanks hard countering roaches, so, Terran players are definitely changing their tactics ATM
    
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post #4350 of 25319
All the random players I've played against don't really know how to play correctly at least one race and always get raped with it.
And they always cheese when it's a mirror match.

Which is why I love randoms
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