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post #5451 of 25319
I don't think they should nerf Protoss It seems to me that it's the msot weak race really...

-Stalkers gets owned easily by MM.

-Colossus, yes they are good, but they are also VERY VERY vulnerable, they can't hit air but they can be attacked by vikings. And they are pretty expensive, they need the upgrade to increase their range, without that upgrade range they are kinda useless. Compare the Colossus to the Thors, Thors win every way, cost less, can attack air and cant be attacked by vikings/phoenix).

-Void, i think they are too powerfull in full power mode, but not enough powerfull in non power mode. Very weak VS vikings in non power mode.

-Carrier, not bad, not good. Easy to counter them with vikings. Not to mention that Yamato gun also owns carriers.

Well, i guess i hate Vikings, lol.

That's just my opinion, i'm no expert. (i'm platinum, 540 victory with protoss out of 1000 games, i play 4v4, yea i know that makes me a noob lol)
Edited by Grindhouse - 11/16/10 at 2:00pm
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post #5452 of 25319
anyone going to be on later tonight?
i kinda want to practice lol
    
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post #5453 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindhouse View Post
I don't think they should nerf Protoss It seems to me that it's the msot weak race really...

-Stalkers gets owned easily by MM.

-Colossus, yes they are good, but they are also VERY VERY vulnerable, they can't hit air but they can be attacked by vikings. And they are pretty expensive, they need the upgrade to increase their range, without that upgrade range they are kinda useless. Compare the Colossus to the Thors, Thors win every way, cost less, can attack air and cant be attacked by vikings/phoenix).

-Void, i think they are too powerfull in full power mode, but not enough powerfull in non power mode. Very weak VS vikings in non power mode.

-Carrier, not bad, not good. Easy to counter them with vikings. Not to mention that Yamato gun also owns carriers.

Well, i guess i hate Vikings, lol.

That's just my opinion, i'm no expert. (i'm platinum, 540 victory with protoss out of 1000 games, i play 4v4, yea i know that makes me a noob lol)
Colossus are way better than you are giving them credit. They are stupid good. I'm sorry but the fact that Vikings are the counter to Colossus is PLUS. You force me to get a unit that is pretty much useless, and worst of all instead of medivacs. Colossus is probably the best unit in the game. When the Thor can walk over cliffs and force air we can talk. Colossus need to be adjusted, and maybe other units buffed instead. Thor's also don't do splash to ground. In critical numbers they are still easy to deal with, where Colossi's stacked DPS in large groups is beyond good. Not to mention you cannot micro vs Colossus, since you have to walk in their range for 3.
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post #5454 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhed5 View Post
My biggest criticism of protoss is that the gateway units are near useless. I remember playing protoss BW style when I first started and going 10-12- gateway with nothing else , then getting spanked even when I had map control and extra expos. I wouldn't mind a nerf on storm upgrade (starting mana) as long as gateway units are buffed.

I hate the concept of charge. Zealots aren't mobile even with the 200/200 (or was it 150/150?) upgrade plus they get slowed my marauders even during charge ***?
Try going mass colossus and see how you do. Sure GW units aren't the best, they aren't supposed to be, they are only Tier 1.5/1 units (except for DTs/HTs). I view them more as "meat shields" to prevent melee units from getting up close and personal with your colossi. I'm not sure how you expect mass tier 1 units to be good... GW units are merely meant to support Colossi/VRs etc later in the game. They make up your primary army in the early-mid game, but after that, colossi/VRs become your work horses. And GW units are quite good against other units in the same tier.
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post #5455 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
Colossus are way better than you are giving them credit. They are stupid good. I'm sorry but the fact that Vikings are the counter to Colossus is PLUS. You force me to get a unit that is pretty much useless, and worst of all instead of medivacs. Colossus is probably the best unit in the game. When the Thor can walk over cliffs and force air we can talk. Colossus need to be adjusted, and maybe other units buffed instead. Thor's also don't do splash to ground. In critical numbers they are still easy to deal with, where Colossi's stacked DPS in large groups is beyond good. Not to mention you cannot micro vs Colossus, since you have to walk in their range for 3.
Yea you got some good points. It's true that the colossus is the best protoss units, and one of the best units of the game. But pretty much every other protoss units are weak, don't nurf our (us, the protoss players ) only advantage !!!
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post #5456 of 25319
You are missing everyone's points. We are not saying "nerf colossus" and that's the end of it. We are saying, nerf Colosuss, and make spots where Protoss is weak else where and buff them in exchange. Read the post I posted with quotes from Jinro and a high Protoss player.
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post #5457 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
Yeah, I remember the days when seeing BC's and Carriers were just like "Oh ****". BC's are still good, but Carriers kinda suck.

Motherships are dumb, yes, but I do think that they have underrated defensive capabilities ( see kiwikaki use it on husky's channel. )
I disagree. Carriers are still good, however, I think their build time has been increased from sc1, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Also, unless I'm mistaken, I remember reading that they do double the damage than in sc1 due to firing two shots from each interceptor compared to one, although, I thought they always fired two shots in sc1, so, not fully sure on that point. With a decent number of them and a mothership, they are crazy good, people just don't use them much and rely mostly on gateway units.

I mean all the games that you spectated, I don't recall yks going for air units at all. One of the games I played with him 2 nights ago, he went for 5 phenoixes, but, I took them down easily with hydras and didn't lost a single OL. He didn't get any air otherwise, no wrap prisms which are great for quick support/transportation, no VRs to increase dps or a hit and run on my drones with that speed upgrade(flux?), no mothership for wraping units into my base(wish zerg had something like this) and no carriers, even though he had 3 bases compared to my measly 2.

I think the main issue is some units are just really powerful. Colossi while are great to use, are really too powerful when you have several of them. That game I was talking about, had my hydras been spread out more with one less colossi, I would've been able to take down his whole army since I had the numbers+DPS and was making another 12 or so hydras as the battle commenced, but, those 3 colossi were too much. Maybe a solution would be to change the colossi's attack, as in more focused like it used to be with a lower cost and a buff to gateway units even though I personally think that GW units aren't all that bad if you micro well(blink injured away, make ff behind maraduers for chargelots, etc....)?

The other issue seems to be that protoss air is underused when compared to zerg where most zergs get mutas, corruptors or get BLs(if time permits) at some point, likewise, some terrans get vikings for colossi or to deal with small # of mutas, most get medivacs for MM/drops into main, some go for bc although they are rare and more and more are getting ravens for PPD or just detection against dts, banelings traps, etc....

Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowtoblerone View Post
I disagree with gateway units are crap. They're underrated. They seem to be crap when they're faced with t1.5 units from other races but they are still very good, esp with sentries. The only issue is the high cost of charge and blink.
They are underrated a lot, a zealot+stalker army crushes a sling+roach army of equal size especially if you consider charge+blink into the equation, but, that's understandable since zealots > slings and stalkers > roaches

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindhouse View Post
I don't think they should nerf Protoss It seems to me that it's the msot weak race really...

-Stalkers gets owned easily by MM.
Which is why you should ff behind them and make sure to get some zealot to get some damage and act as meat shields

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindhouse View Post
-Colossus, yes they are good, but they are also VERY VERY vulnerable, they can't hit air but they can be attacked by vikings. And they are pretty expensive, they need the upgrade to increase their range, without that upgrade range they are kinda useless. Compare the Colossus to the Thors, Thors win every way, cost less, can attack air and cant be attacked by vikings/phoenix).

-Void, i think they are too powerfull in full power mode, but not enough powerfull in non power mode. Very weak VS vikings in non power mode.

-Carrier, not bad, not good. Easy to counter them with vikings. Not to mention that Yamato gun also owns carriers.

Well, i guess i hate Vikings, lol.

That's just my opinion, i'm no expert. (i'm platinum, 540 victory with protoss out of 1000 games, i play 4v4, yea i know that makes me a noob lol)
If colossi hit air, then they are OP. They are support units like hts or thors and are pretty powerful for their cost. A couple could potentially wipe out a decent size army if they have some support. Thors might be able to attack air, but, they do no splash and can't steep up cliffs to escape a bad situation in comparison to colossi.

Void rays are countered by vikings if i recall correctly due to range and the ability to kite them. Yes, vikings > carriers when you factor in costs+build time(I think 3 vikings to 1 carrier), but, that's why you also have some phenoixes accompanying them to take out the vikings. Vikings aren't really that bad of a unit to deal with, just have some stalkers or phenoixes and that should be enough to protect carriers from them, since, they are air to air only until switched to ground, so, they are limited.

From the 3vs3 and 4vs4 games I've played, seems most opponents just mass one unit type(VRs, immortals, colossi, etc....) and move in for the kill. VRs when powered up in large numbers are pretty hard to stop

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
Colossus are way better than you are giving them credit. They are stupid good. I'm sorry but the fact that Vikings are the counter to Colossus is PLUS. You force me to get a unit that is pretty much useless, and worst of all instead of medivacs. Colossus is probably the best unit in the game. When the Thor can walk over cliffs and force air we can talk. Colossus need to be adjusted, and maybe other units buffed instead. Thor's also don't do splash to ground. In critical numbers they are still easy to deal with, where Colossi's stacked DPS in large groups is beyond good. Not to mention you cannot micro vs Colossus, since you have to walk in their range for 3.
True, one thing about the viking though, is that you can use them to make a quick hit on a base by landing in their mineral field and withdrawing as reinforcements come in. I'm still surprised at the number of T who don't do this at all, to me, it's what makes them a nice unit with interesting abilities
Edited by BigFan - 11/16/10 at 3:34pm
    
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post #5458 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
You are missing everyone's points. We are not saying "nerf colossus" and that's the end of it. We are saying, nerf Colosuss, and make spots where Protoss is weak else where and buff them in exchange. Read the post I posted with quotes from Jinro and a high Protoss player.
I understand that, i read the posts, i just didn't specified that point in my post.

But would they change the other units enough to make them really better ? That's what i'm worried about. For exemple, could we expect to see stalkers being able to compete to MM ? Because at the moment, massing stalkers VS massing MM, it's easy to say who will win. Need colossus, a tier 2 unit (or is it tier 3?), to be albe to compete VS MM, tier 1 units. Even then, i better have MANY colossus, because a few maurauders will bring them down pretty fast.

But yea, if done right, nurfing a little bit the colossus and buff some other units could be good.

I don't think the colossus are THAT overkill though. They are very good, but not unstoppable.
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post #5459 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grindhouse View Post
I understand that, i read the posts, i just didn't specified that point in my post.

But would they change the other units enough to make them really better ? That's what i'm worried about. For exemple, could we expect to see stalkers being able to compete to MM ? Because at the moment, massing stalkers VS massing MM, it's easy to say who will win. Need colossus, a tier 2 unit (or is it tier 3?), to be albe to compete VS MM, tier 1 units. Even then, i better have MANY colossus, because a few maurauders will bring them down pretty fast.

But yea, if done right, nurfing a little bit the colossus and buff some other units could be good.

I don't think the colossus are THAT overkill though. They are very good, but not unstoppable.
Marauders counter stalkers easily which is why adding zealots in which help your stalker to survive and do some more damage(takes 14-15 shots to take down zealot by marauders(10 damage/hit)). You should always be ff'ing when using zealots+stalkers against MM because kiting zealot is pretty easy with marines having a range of 5 and marauders with 6. Having a colossi without support is just a bad idea, but, with support, they do well against all ground units
    
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post #5460 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigFan View Post
Marauders counter stalkers easily which is why adding zealots in which help your stalker to survive and do some more damage(takes 14-15 shots to take down zealot by marauders(10 damage/hit)). You should always be ff'ing when using zealots+stalkers against MM because kiting zealot is pretty easy with marines having a range of 5 and marauders with 6. Having a colossi without support is just a bad idea, but, with support, they do well against all ground units
Yes of course, i support my colossus with stalkers. My ''classic'' army is mass stalkers + colossus. Depending what's going on in the game, early attack or not, etc, i end up with something like 24-30 stalkers and 6-8 colossus.

I think my perception of the game might be distorted also. I mean i always play 4v4, that give very different game types than 1v1 or 2v2, in which people probably try to get a more diverse/versatile army. Like you said, in 4v4 people often mass 1 type of units, then meet with allies and go attack. Makes nice large battle, but doesn't make really good players. (or there's the classic 3 meet and go hit, one harass base with mass mutas)

I've seen so much people owning my colossus with mass mutas, or mass vikings or mass void, and then the rest of my stalkers getting owned by MM.
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