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post #5951 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThumperSD View Post
I disagree there. Yes bronze stats are worthless but diamond stats should mean something as people know how to play the game. Balancing should be made for diamond/plat ladder and GSL.

Like I said, I dont judge protoss based on GSL stats. I watch the protoss matchups and analyze the player's skill. I feel that protoss players' skill is a bit inferior to the terran/zerg players. I see room for improvement for players like Genius. Yes he is one of the best protoss but he could have played better games at GSL. That's my observation. Stats really dont tell the whole story.

I dont know, maybe Im just unbiased.
The game develops as you move up in rankings. In bronze, zealots rule because players don't know how to kite with marines. In these ladders, you can win like 80% of matches from zealot rushes alone.

The same analogy applies in lower diamond brackets, where 75% of matches are cheese. Players still need to learn very key mechanics. You can't balance the game around this. For example, zerg players don't yet know how to do the magic box trick, or how to do baneling drops. These are both key tricks that you'll see only in high rated diamond matches. The game needs to be balanced where all races are used to their fullest potential - I'd say this is around 2600+ diamond, not the full ladder itself. Doing so produces very, very flawed data.

If you look at 2600+ ladder stats, I'm sure you'll find that protoss representation is very similar to what we're seeing in GSL. Quite strange given that we KNOW that protoss is played the most often.
Edited by Lazorbeam - 11/30/10 at 10:55am
    
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post #5952 of 25319
Thumper has no clue what he's talking about.
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post #5953 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazorbeam View Post
The game develops as you move up in rankings. In bronze, zealots rule because players don't know how to kite with marines. In these ladders, you can win like 80% of matches from zealot rushes alone.

The same analogy applies in lower diamond brackets. 75% of matches are cheese. Players still need to learn very key mechanics. You can't balance the game around this. For example, zerg players don't yet know how to do the magic box trick, or how to do baneling drops. These are both key tricks that you'll see only in high rated diamond matches. The game needs to be balanced where all races are used to their fullest potential - I'd say this is around 2600+ diamond, not the full ladder itself. Doing so produces very, very flawed data.

If you look at 2600+ ladder stats, I'm sure you'll find that protoss representation is very similar to what we're seeing in GSL. Quite strange given that we KNOW that protoss is played the most often.
I've been meaning to try that bane drop ever since I saw a tutorial on how to do it, but, haven't had the chance yet. For anyone planning to attempt it, after selecting all of your OLs and moving them, you have to press D or click the unload button on each one, unfortunately, you can't just press D and get all of them to unload at the same time.

I'm still kinda surprised that you mention that this trick isn't used by diamonds other than the high-level ones especially considering how effective it could be if done at the correct time. I do agree with everything else though, people just whine too much instead of learning all the ins and outs of their race, good thing Blizzard considers pro comments as well as high-level diamond players(likely). Can't wait to see what the next big patch is gonna include
    
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post #5954 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigFan View Post
I'm still kinda surprised that you mention that this trick isn't used by diamonds other than the high-level ones especially considering how effective it could be if done at the correct time.
Because it's hard! Fruitdealer does it so naturally it blows my mind.

If blizzard balanced the game around platinum/low diamond, high level zerg players would go around raping everything due to advantages such as the aforementioned magic box or baneling drops.

Speaking of banelings, I'm curious to see if blizzard will announce any nerfs to the unit. I hardly ever see them as protoss, but even at 2300 players still don't know how to do attack + overhead baneling drop.

In terms of ZvT, I see a lot of whining from terran players, especially in matches where the terran uses marines exclusively -_-. From what I've seen, zerg has the advantage in this matchup, so a change may be required somewhere.
Edited by Lazorbeam - 11/30/10 at 11:02am
    
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post #5955 of 25319
The influx of the Foxer style 2 rax push is because terrans feel that's one of the only options of taking the game to zerg. If you don't play aggresive and play a macro game, it's really tough for terran as zerg can outpump drones so much faster.

Regarding banelings; they are really effective, but I don't think they're the reason why TvZ is tough. It's not even that awfully imbalanced, however terran's have had continously been nerfed and the amount of cards they had early game were seriosuly reduced. You always had to do damage to zerg early game , before it was reapers and going rax first before supply to punish expanding zergs, but with the patches, those strategys aren't viable anymore.
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post #5956 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazorbeam View Post
Because it's hard! Fruitdealer does it so naturally it blows my mind.

If blizzard balanced the game around platinum/low diamond, high level zerg players would go around raping everything due to advantages such as the aforementioned magic box or baneling drops.
Is it really that difficult to perform? I mean I understand that you have to put some resources into OL transport+speed and those resources can be better spend on your army, but, all you have to do is load up the banes into OLs, send in your slings first and then move your OLs over their army and press drop. It can't be that difficult to do, of course, I'm thinking my league level here so that's probably why I don't see the difficulty of it. I would also think someone of your level would have np doing it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazorbeam View Post
Speaking of banelings, I'm curious to see if blizzard will announce any nerfs to the unit. I hardly ever see them as protoss, but even at 2300 players still don't know how to do attack + overhead baneling drop.

In terms of ZvT, I see a lot of whining from terran players, especially in matches where the terran uses marines exclusively -_-. From what I've seen, zerg has the advantage in this matchup, so a change may be required somewhere.
Well, I'm sure you know this already but, banes are really inefficient against P because it's 20(35 vs armored) but, really awesome against T especially if they go MM due to the marines' low hp and their light armor designation plus their large splash. Unless they have foxer micro, they aren't getting away without losing their whole army to my blings especially if I get the blings speed upgrade which is a necessity

I once played a T who went mass marines on Xelnaga cavern. At one point, he attacked with 72 marines at once against my slings+blings army. I had map control and knew when the attack was coming, so, I caught his army right before they arrived at my base near a choke(I was at the bottom) and took a decent # of it down with blings before he reacted, the rest was finished by queens, some slings and crawlers. My point was that Blizzard should not be balancing the game around the first unit for each race, as in zealots, marines and zlings, but, I doubt they will do that. I do think they might nerf banes slightly, maybe less against buildings or lower their light damage(30 instead of 35) or possibly their splash, but, I'm hoping that they don't crazy nerf them because banes hard counter marines, kinda like his immortals hard counter thors or phenoixes hard counter mutas
Edited by BigFan - 11/30/10 at 11:31am
    
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post #5957 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigFan View Post
Is it really that difficult to perform? I mean I understand that you have to put some resources into OL transport+speed and those resources can be better spend on your army, but, all you have to do is load up the banes into OLs, send in your slings first and then move your OLs over their army and press drop. It can't be that difficult to do, of course, I'm thinking my league level here so that's probably why I don't see the difficulty of it. I would also think someone of your level would have np doing it

Well, I'm sure you know this already but, banes are really inefficient against P because it's 20(35 vs armored) but, really awesome against T especially if they go MM due to the marines' low hp and their light armor designation plus their large splash. Unless they have foxer micro, they aren't getting away without losing their whole army to my blings especially if I get the blings speed upgrade which is a necessity
It becomes hard to perform when you're dealing with an opponent that does more than just stand there. A good terran will spread out his forces and OLs need to be micro'ed accordingly (play a fruitdealer fight in slow motion and see what I'm talking about). You also need to micro the rest of your army simultaneously.

Edit: also, in macro games where everything is moving so fast, setting up the drop must be done FAST.

Fruitdealer has used baneling drops vs protoss and it's very effective, especially for sniping colossi sitting in the back and obliterating everything. But I think corruptors are better for this .
    
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post #5958 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhed5 View Post
The influx of the Foxer style 2 rax push is because terrans feel that's one of the only options of taking the game to zerg. If you don't play aggresive and play a macro game, it's really tough for terran as zerg can outpump drones so much faster.

Regarding banelings; they are really effective, but I don't think they're the reason why TvZ is tough. It's not even that awfully imbalanced, however terran's have had continously been nerfed and the amount of cards they had early game were seriosuly reduced. You always had to do damage to zerg early game , before it was reapers and going rax first before supply to punish expanding zergs, but with the patches, those strategys aren't viable anymore.
Well, mules can really help with your macro bigtime and medivacs really help as well, since, we don't have such a mechanism(zerg units heal over time). Personally, I don't think they should've changed it for rax first, but, even then, laying an engineering bay at a Z's exp and using units such as thors to absorb bane damage should be something that Ts consider especially consider a thor's 400 hp can absorb over 20 banes which is a huge mineral/gas loss for the Z player, although, a smart player would manevour them behind the thor. I think drops should be used more often and tanks should be used more as well. If you can take down a Z's expo, they are pretty much done for from my experience. I think reapers are still viable but their speed upgrade made them a bit easier to counter
    
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post #5959 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazorbeam View Post
It becomes hard to perform when you're dealing with an opponent that does more than just stand there. A good terran will spread out his forces and OLs need to be micro'ed accordingly (play a fruitdealer fight in slow motion and see what I'm talking about). You also need to micro the rest of your army simultaneously.

Edit: also, in macro games where everything is moving so fast, setting up the drop must be done FAST.

Fruitdealer has used baneling drops vs protoss and it's very effective, especially for sniping colossi sitting in the back and obliterating everything. But I think corruptors are better for this .
lol, true. Wouldn't something like shift+move to designate the pass of your OL so that you don't have to worry about controlling it other than the unload help a lot, because, for some reason, I seem to recall FD doing it or at least someone mentioning he does it? It would allow you to micro your army as well, so, your opponent will have to decide against the lesser evil to defend against.

You also need to consider that even if you spread your marines out, even foxer would have a hard time microing them all almost at once against multiple baning drops, at least that's what I would think, but, I haven't seen many of his games so I can't comment more. As for the colossi thing, yes, doom posted about a thread on here addressing this and how banes are effective due to their splash+large size of colossi, but, I haven't tried it yet either
    
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post #5960 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazorbeam View Post
Because it's hard! Fruitdealer does it so naturally it blows my mind.

If blizzard balanced the game around platinum/low diamond, high level zerg players would go around raping everything due to advantages such as the aforementioned magic box or baneling drops.

Speaking of banelings, I'm curious to see if blizzard will announce any nerfs to the unit. I hardly ever see them as protoss, but even at 2300 players still don't know how to do attack + overhead baneling drop.

In terms of ZvT, I see a lot of whining from terran players, especially in matches where the terran uses marines exclusively -_-. From what I've seen, zerg has the advantage in this matchup, so a change may be required somewhere.

I never see any T's use marines exclusively. I do marine rushes early and transition out. Marine rushes are really awesome against Z actually... and IMO the only way to keep Zerg from pulling way ahead these days. Before I did these marine pushes I was finding that if I didn't win with a timing attack I just wouldn't win period. With the marine pushes I can actually end up on equal footing for the mid-game for once.

As for Protoss I don't really feel sorry for them.. only maybe slightly against Zerg. Also bane drops aren't that hard my 2000 Zerg buddy does them effectively and he isn't 2600+. Ladder rating means jack for the most part. Read my post on the last page about the difference in skill I've noticed on two different accounts, against people the same scores.
Edited by DoomDash - 11/30/10 at 12:30pm
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