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post #851 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by _02 View Post
Flip face like Large Marge in a Mac truck.
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post #852 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
Really? I find that hard to believe that your being successful with a bio ball and some vikings.

A ) Z > Bio with infestors and whatever they want after that.

B ) Vikings suck if muta's are out. Curropoters too.

C) Metal is the standard for this match up... so you are playing it very odd.
well all i have to say is there's more to sc2 than macro, it's a lot about timing and micro too
post #853 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucas Lamer View Post
Yeah, I don't see why a Terran player would want to let the game go on long enough for the Zerg to get all their best units plus multiple nydus networks. Terrans can amass enough firepower to force a conclusion before then, and on more favorable terms.
"Best units"? What are those exactly?

Thors and vikings wreck air units, siege tanks and marines/maurauders wreck ground units...
post #854 of 25319
You are thinking about things INCREDIBLY simplistic. This is a problem with most current SCII players.

On paper Terran looks amazing. You can't think of it just on paper unit for unit. You must think about everything at once.

Thors are good vs Muta, yep. Thors also are incredibly immobile / expensive.

Vikings are good vs air units? Well that's true in a sense, but actually Zerg has the best AA unit in game ( curropter ). Curropters wreck vikings with curroption. Not only that but Muta's > Vikings. Do the tests yourself in unit tester if you don't believe me.

Yes, Terran units are sick on the ground... but Zerg has mobility, cheaper expansions, and much better macro mechanics. You can't think of things in 1:1 situations. The entire reason the roach was nerfed to two food in beta was because the ability for Zerg to replace entire armies in seconds with built up larva.

I mean this is like poor silver level arguments here.

As a SC1 / BW player as well, the game really isn't much different. Zerg back then never could exchange with similar sized Protoss and Terran armies and expect to win. Just not set up to work that way.
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post #855 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
You are thinking about things INCREDIBLY simplistic. This is a problem with most current SCII players.

On paper Terran looks amazing. You can't think of it just on paper unit for unit. You must think about everything at once.

Thors are good vs Muta, yep. Thors also are incredibly immobile / expensive.

Vikings are good vs air units? Well that's true in a sense, but actually Zerg has the best AA unit in game ( curropter ). Curropters wreck vikings with curroption. Not only that but Muta's > Vikings. Do the tests yourself in unit tester if you don't believe me.

Yes, Terran units are sick on the ground... but Zerg has mobility, cheaper expansions, and much better macro mechanics. You can't think of things in 1:1 situations. The entire reason the roach was nerfed to two food in beta was because the ability for Zerg to replace entire armies in seconds with built up larva.

I mean this is like poor silver level arguments here.

As a SC1 / BW player as well, the game really isn't much different. Zerg back then never could exchange with similar sized Protoss and Terran armies and expect to win. Just not set up to work that way.
I may have been somewhat exaggerating in my previous statement, but my basic point remains and it's actually pretty true.

Thor vs muta.

Thor: 300 minerals, 200 gas, 6 supply. The latter is the biggest blow against it.
Mutalisk: 100 minerals, 100 gas, 2 supply. You'll get 2 mutas for the same gas price as a thor (as gas is in far shorter supply, and you'll usually have an excess of minerals). A thor will absolutely wreck two mutas with ease. Plus... mutalisk range: 3. Thor anti air range? 10. A ****ing *10*. With splash damage. By the time mutas even get in range of thors, some will be dead.

Mutas do tend to be > vikings, yes, but vikings does have huge advantages. A) anti air missiles range? NINE. So again, mutas will die before they even get in range (although they'll get in range fast). Plus, vikings are 150 minerals, but only 75 gas. And you can use the reactor to pump them out like crazy, so often enough you'll see more vikings than you do mutalisks.

As for corruptors... yeah, corruptors are good anti air... vs carriers, battlecruisers, and motherships. Why? Because they get a +damage bonus vs massive targets, which vikings happen not to be. And again, corruptors have a 6 range, so still less than vikings. Plus you'll again usually see more vikings than corruptors, as the latter cost 150 minerals and 100 gas. In equal numbers, vikings usually win (corruption is pathetic, as it adds maybe 1-2 damage a hit for a single target. Usually not worth the energy except in rare cases).

And now to zerg mobility... are you kidding me? Really? Zerg mobility is possibly the worst in the game right now. Off creep, which is ridiculously easy to prevent (oh hey a creep tumor! *pop*), zerg units are pathetically slow. Zerg have *three* separate speed increase upgrades, all at 100 min/gas (zerglings, which is pretty much standard. roach, almost as much. I'll rarely see an overlord speed increase though). Add to the fact that you must add yet another upgrade at 200/200 to even be able to move units with the overlord (which comes standard for a gas free protoss unit, or a hugely versatile terran unit), the mobility is very sub-standard. Nydus canals are a benefit, yes, but they're fairly easy to see, are heard through the entire map, and cost precious minerals and GAS to create an exit in the first place. Add to the fact the units exit one by one at a glacial pace...

The hydralisk speed nerf is practically an insult to gamers. Admittedly it might not need the speed it had in starcraft 1, but at the moment, it is so pathetically slow off creep that it is nigh useless as a quick response unit, or even in attacks. It certainly cannot escape any overwhelming force it might present.

terran mobility is far better, as one of the most powerful forces in the game is a relatively cheap and simple one: the MMM combo. Stim them, and they zoom across the map at olympic runner speeds, or just transport them in the medivac itself to drop anywhere. And let us not mention the bane of any mineral line, the reaper. Why in the hell would you give *free* cliffjumping to such an early/cheap unit? Stalkers still need blink cliffjump, and even then they need sight.

Protoss mobility is off the scale, with pylons and warpgates and whatnot.

Zerg mobility is sub par (especially off creep), and/or too expensive, and get screwed over by map design in the first place: chokes, chokes, chokes everywhere the eye can see, with little to no way of properly walling it off/holding it with siege units (which we entirely lack short of broodlords, which take entirely too long to get. Oh yeah, vikings eat the sickeningly slow moving broodlords for breakfast~). And absolutely *no* cliff jumpers. Nydus does not particularly count, needing a building, and an exit, and is as mentioned easily detectable.


/rant off
post #856 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tchernobyl View Post
I may have been somewhat exaggerating in my previous statement, but my basic point remains and it's actually pretty true.

Thor vs muta.

Thor: 300 minerals, 200 gas, 6 supply. The latter is the biggest blow against it.
Mutalisk: 100 minerals, 100 gas, 2 supply. You'll get 2 mutas for the same gas price as a thor (as gas is in far shorter supply, and you'll usually have an excess of minerals). A thor will absolutely wreck two mutas with ease. Plus... mutalisk range: 3. Thor anti air range? 10. A ****ing *10*. With splash damage. By the time mutas even get in range of thors, some will be dead.

Mutas do tend to be > vikings, yes, but vikings does have huge advantages. A) anti air missiles range? NINE. So again, mutas will die before they even get in range (although they'll get in range fast). Plus, vikings are 150 minerals, but only 75 gas. And you can use the reactor to pump them out like crazy, so often enough you'll see more vikings than you do mutalisks.

As for corruptors... yeah, corruptors are good anti air... vs carriers, battlecruisers, and motherships. Why? Because they get a +damage bonus vs massive targets, which vikings happen not to be. And again, corruptors have a 6 range, so still less than vikings. Plus you'll again usually see more vikings than corruptors, as the latter cost 150 minerals and 100 gas. In equal numbers, vikings usually win (corruption is pathetic, as it adds maybe 1-2 damage a hit for a single target. Usually not worth the energy except in rare cases).

And now to zerg mobility... are you kidding me? Really? Zerg mobility is possibly the worst in the game right now. Off creep, which is ridiculously easy to prevent (oh hey a creep tumor! *pop*), zerg units are pathetically slow. Zerg have *three* separate speed increase upgrades, all at 100 min/gas (zerglings, which is pretty much standard. roach, almost as much. I'll rarely see an overlord speed increase though). Add to the fact that you must add yet another upgrade at 200/200 to even be able to move units with the overlord (which comes standard for a gas free protoss unit, or a hugely versatile terran unit), the mobility is very sub-standard. Nydus canals are a benefit, yes, but they're fairly easy to see, are heard through the entire map, and cost precious minerals and GAS to create an exit in the first place. Add to the fact the units exit one by one at a glacial pace...

The hydralisk speed nerf is practically an insult to gamers. Admittedly it might not need the speed it had in starcraft 1, but at the moment, it is so pathetically slow off creep that it is nigh useless as a quick response unit, or even in attacks. It certainly cannot escape any overwhelming force it might present.

terran mobility is far better, as one of the most powerful forces in the game is a relatively cheap and simple one: the MMM combo. Stim them, and they zoom across the map at olympic runner speeds, or just transport them in the medivac itself to drop anywhere. And let us not mention the bane of any mineral line, the reaper. Why in the hell would you give *free* cliffjumping to such an early/cheap unit? Stalkers still need blink cliffjump, and even then they need sight.

Protoss mobility is off the scale, with pylons and warpgates and whatnot.

Zerg mobility is sub par (especially off creep), and/or too expensive, and get screwed over by map design in the first place: chokes, chokes, chokes everywhere the eye can see, with little to no way of properly walling it off/holding it with siege units (which we entirely lack short of broodlords, which take entirely too long to get. Oh yeah, vikings eat the sickeningly slow moving broodlords for breakfast~). And absolutely *no* cliff jumpers. Nydus does not particularly count, needing a building, and an exit, and is as mentioned easily detectable.


/rant off
I'm just warning you that I'm going to break your entire post down and tell you why your wrong, but it will take me awhile so check back .
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post #857 of 25319
Again, i'll admit that I'm no analyst and may be somewhat exaggerating (not really consciously) in some cases, most of what I'm saying there isn't far off the mark at all

I may be overstating how badly off the zerg are, but they're definitely not in a good spot at ALL.
post #858 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tchernobyl View Post
I may have been somewhat exaggerating in my previous statement, but my basic point remains and it's actually pretty true.

Thor vs muta.

Thor: 300 minerals, 200 gas, 6 supply. The latter is the biggest blow against it.
Mutalisk: 100 minerals, 100 gas, 2 supply. You'll get 2 mutas for the same gas price as a thor (as gas is in far shorter supply, and you'll usually have an excess of minerals). A thor will absolutely wreck two mutas with ease. Plus... mutalisk range: 3. Thor anti air range? 10. A ****ing *10*. With splash damage. By the time mutas even get in range of thors, some will be dead.
Again, you're only incorporating part of the story here. Yes, when you engage thors with mutas you will end up losing, even more money's worth. Muta's were never a unit to engage units that counter them EVER. Muta's are meant for harass, or to hit people where they are weak / not prepare for them. Chances are that the Terran won't have thors everywhere at once to stop muta harass. Plus you can spread out your muta's too and it helps a ton. Then you take into account that you can also have 2 mutas, AND 8 Zerglings on top of that price, which will easily beat a Thor. Thor's weakness is either armored air, or smaller units paired up with other units.


Mutas do tend to be > vikings, yes, but vikings does have huge advantages. A) anti air missiles range? NINE. So again, mutas will die before they even get in range (although they'll get in range fast). Plus, vikings are 150 minerals, but only 75 gas. And you can use the reactor to pump them out like crazy, so often enough you'll see more vikings than you do mutalisks.
Range 9 is meaningless though if mutalisks move faster ( which they do ). This makes any kiting impossible. Even WITH Vikings getting all the free hits in on mutas they will not beat them in equal numbers PERIOD. Vikings are more expensive than Mutalisks as well... yes muta's are more gas but I'll get into that in a second. Also, the Reactor argument is null and void. Reactors don't even begin to compare to the macro mechanics of Zerg. You can have so many larva per hatch its not even funny. At maxed you can BUILD up your larva, so if you lose your entire mutalisk army you can literally spawn an entire new one in no time. You'd have to have probably some crazy amount of starports w/ reactors to even remotely compare to that, plus you have to take into account how much EACH starport costs, and EACH reactor. With Zerg, you plop down a spire and you are good to go.

As for corruptors... yeah, corruptors are good anti air... vs carriers, battlecruisers, and motherships. Why? Because they get a +damage bonus vs massive targets, which vikings happen not to be. And again, corruptors have a 6 range, so still less than vikings. Plus you'll again usually see more vikings than corruptors, as the latter cost 150 minerals and 100 gas. In equal numbers, vikings usually win (corruption is pathetic, as it adds maybe 1-2 damage a hit for a single target. Usually not worth the energy except in rare cases). Wrong. Just wrong. Curropters are good vs pretty much everything in the sky period. They are the single best AA in the game. They will beat vikings in equal numbers w/ curroption ( test it in unit tester ), they will slaughter bc's, carriers, void rays, you name it. Not only that but curroption works on ground units so its just a good spell all around. Combine that with the amazing macro mechanics of Z and it only takes 30 seconds to turn around a game where you were not ready for bc's or vikings ( ask me how I know ). It is ALWAYS worth the energy. 20% is game changing.. and there is NO reason not to use it.

And now to zerg mobility... are you kidding me? Really? Zerg mobility is possibly the worst in the game right now. Off creep, which is ridiculously easy to prevent (oh hey a creep tumor! *pop*), zerg units are pathetically slow. Zerg have *three* separate speed increase upgrades, all at 100 min/gas (zerglings, which is pretty much standard. roach, almost as much. I'll rarely see an overlord speed increase though). Add to the fact that you must add yet another upgrade at 200/200 to even be able to move units with the overlord (which comes standard for a gas free protoss unit, or a hugely versatile terran unit), the mobility is very sub-standard. Nydus canals are a benefit, yes, but they're fairly easy to see, are heard through the entire map, and cost precious minerals and GAS to create an exit in the first place. Add to the fact the units exit one by one at a glacial pace...
Zerg mobility is great because of its ability to spread creep, as well as many other things. Lets be honest, spreading the creep isn't all that hard? Make one extra queen and you're golden. Get a lair and spread creep with overlords, w/e. Zerglings are the fastest unit in the game period. Creep or not even. Roaches are plenty fast with the upgrade, and its not that unreasonable to get. Mutalisks are the most mobile air unit in the game besides the phoenix, but obviously mutalisks are much more of a threat. Nydus networks obviously can make units go from one base to another in seconds, for defense, or offense. Now, here is another big key thing you are missing. You mention that transportation for the Warp Prism comes free. Of course it comes free. You automatically have probably 20+ drop ships after spending that 200/200 on transportation upgrade. Remember you already have the overlords, and you already have a ton of them. That would be like having 20 warp prisms... thats just not affordable. That's a HUGE advantage for Zerg. Now that 200/200 makes it seem a lot more fair does it not? Zerg is famous for "doom" drops for a reason you know...

As far as Hydras go, yeah they are pretty best on creep. No doubt about that, but again creep isn't hard to spread, and against Toss Hydra's are so good vs gateway units that they need to have some major disadvantages.

Also, do you see how fast infestors move with the burrow upgrade? It's nuts! And they are a GREAT unit.


The hydralisk speed nerf is practically an insult to gamers. Admittedly it might not need the speed it had in starcraft 1, but at the moment, it is so pathetically slow off creep that it is nigh useless as a quick response unit, or even in attacks. It certainly cannot escape any overwhelming force it might present.

terran mobility is far better, as one of the most powerful forces in the game is a relatively cheap and simple one: the MMM combo. Stim them, and they zoom across the map at olympic runner speeds, or just transport them in the medivac itself to drop anywhere. And let us not mention the bane of any mineral line, the reaper. Why in the hell would you give *free* cliffjumping to such an early/cheap unit? Stalkers still need blink cliffjump, and even then they need sight.

Protoss mobility is off the scale, with pylons and warpgates and whatnot.

Zerg mobility is sub par (especially off creep), and/or too expensive, and get screwed over by map design in the first place: chokes, chokes, chokes everywhere the eye can see, with little to no way of properly walling it off/holding it with siege units (which we entirely lack short of broodlords, which take entirely too long to get. Oh yeah, vikings eat the sickeningly slow moving broodlords for breakfast~). And absolutely *no* cliff jumpers. Nydus does not particularly count, needing a building, and an exit, and is as mentioned easily detectable.


/rant off
I think Protoss mobility is almost as good as Zerg, but certainly not Terran, especially a Terran with tanks and thors. MM aren't all that fast either unless you are at drop ship tech, but then at that point you should have enough infestors to deal with that problem.

And for the gas point:

Its easier to expand as Zerg. 300 minerals, nydus networks for defense, ect. If you watch the best Z players play they make hatches/expans specifically for getting gas. You pretty much never see Terran at a point where he can do that.
Edited by DoomDash - 8/27/10 at 9:01pm
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post #859 of 25319
Oh and I don't think the match up is inbalanced at all. Not making an argument that Zerg is OP or something, just pointing out that each race has its own unique advantages.
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1440P Extreme.
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Now the wifes PC.
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I7 3930K @ 4.4ghz Asus Rampage IV Extreme 2011 EVGA GTX 980 Ti 6GB FTW EVGA GTX 980 Ti 6GB FTW 
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G,skill Ripjaw Z series 2400 32gb Samsung 840 Pro Seagate 3TB 7200 RPM  Western Digital mainstream 3TB  
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Samsung 840 Pro LG Bluray Burner Noctua NH-D14 SE2011 Windows 10 x64 
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Intel I7 870 @ 3.6 ghz ASUS P7P55D-E Pro EVGA 680 GTX 4gb EVGA 680 GTX 4gb 
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G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 16GB (4x 4GB) DDR3 Samsung 830 128 GB SSD, WD 2TB 7200 RPM LG Black 10X Blu-ray Burner Windows 7 64 bit 
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post #860 of 25319
Ha ha lol I just plaid vs a Terran and I built tones of mutas and attacked his peasants,
then run away, then I just captured a whole bunch of bases and kept on building more and more mutas and then he tried to go to capture a base and my mutas completely steamrolled all his mans! Then I win!
Fatal1ty
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Q6600 @ 3.2GHz XFX 780i SLI EVGA 480 + Zotac 480 2 x 2GB G. Skill DDR2 @ 800MHz 
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Hitachi 2x 250GB RAID 0 LG 48xDVD/RW Windows 7 x64 Professional 3 x Acer GD235HZ 120Hz 2ms 
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Fatal1ty
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Hitachi 2x 250GB RAID 0 LG 48xDVD/RW Windows 7 x64 Professional 3 x Acer GD235HZ 120Hz 2ms 
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Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard 1220 KingWin Mach 1 Coolermaster HAF - X Razer Deathadder 
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