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post #8591 of 25319
I'll go out on a limb and say it; zerg needs buff. This new patch is going to be god awful.
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post #8592 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhed5 View Post
I'll go out on a limb and say it; zerg needs buff. This new patch is going to be god awful.
You don't actually believe that . I know you know how good Z is. I do think the -10 sec phoenix should only be 5 at most though.
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post #8593 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by poroboszcz View Post
Did you actually listen to what he was trying to say for the whole time. I assume you watched Newbie Tuesday #1. He specifically targets players like you and provides reasoning and examples why you need solid macro before worrying about anything else.

You don't even have to know what magic box is, you don't need baneling micro, perfect army positioning, or even any micro at all. Also thinking in terms of unit counters is not going to help you.
I agree that you don't need to think about units counters or micro if you're a bronze level player but after that you're going to be in a lot of trouble if you don't think about unit counters or even very minor micro. I'll give you an example, going mass marauders when your opponent goes speedlings and mutas. That's pretty much an auto loss for the T. Or how about hellions/marines vs a standard 4 gate unit comp. You're going to get your butt handed to you. I don't care how good someones macro is if they don't worry about unit counters/composition or micro they're going to lose a lot even in the lower leagues.
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post #8594 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
You don't actually believe that . I know you know how good Z is. I do think the -10 sec phoenix should only be 5 at most though.
If Zerg was as good as you say it is, why aren't they winning the top tournaments?
post #8595 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by vdek View Post
If Zerg was as good as you say it is, why aren't they winning the top tournaments?
Did you miss GSL season 1 and 2? Plus they have like what, 15% less players? I'd say considering that they are doing mighty good.

Also it's not just me saying that. It's obviously not fact, but the general 2000+~ Diamond population population I know feels the same.

Plus once you get your macro down perfect I think even you will see.
Edited by DoomDash - 1/6/11 at 8:19am
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post #8596 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by vdek View Post
If Zerg was as good as you say it is, why aren't they winning the top tournaments?
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that its most likely because most of the ZvX games played during gsl and other top tournaments have been very micro oriented and haven't gone past the mid game. The players playing against zerg try to end the game before the mid/late game for a reason, a good zerg will have a huge advantage during the mid/late game if he played right.
Edited by Mwarren - 1/6/11 at 8:26am
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post #8597 of 25319
Then you got all these T's and P's all inning Z all the time avoid having to ever get to mid-late game where they are probably what most considered too good. No one is complaining about Z early game here. Kinda messes up stats ect. Game is too fresh to hold off all ins all the time or even majority.
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post #8598 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwarren View Post
I agree that you don't need to think about units counters or micro if you're a bronze level player but after that you're going to be in a lot of trouble if you don't think about unit counters or even very minor micro. I'll give you an example, going mass marauders when your opponent goes speedlings and mutas. That's pretty much an auto loss for the T. Or how about hellions/marines vs a standard 4 gate unit comp. You're going to get your butt handed to you. I don't care how good someones macro is if they don't worry about unit counters/composition or micro they're going to lose a lot even in the lower leagues.
Yeah but practicing macro usually involves using safe builds. MM to MMM for TvP, 2gate robo for PvT, etc.
Although zerg, as usual, is probably different.
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post #8599 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
Did you miss GSL season 1 and 2?

Yeah I actually missed it. I know Fruitdealer won GSL 1, but he hasn't been doing so hot since then I think.

Quote:
Plus they have like what, 15% less players? I'd say considering that they are doing mighty good.

Also it's not just me saying that. It's obviously not fact, but the general 2000+~ Diamond population population I know feels the same.

Plus once you get your macro down perfect I think even you will see.
Heh, the hardest part about Zerg is getting timings correct. I think a macro Terran can be really deadly end game as well though, just that most players don't play that way. If you go Boxer style with the mass OCs and get a LOT of Barracks + Reactors. You could do a lot of damage to a macro zerg that way, in fact I think a macro terran could outproduce a macro zerg. Not to mention the fact that a Terran macroing with OCs would have a significantly stronger 200/200 army due to the lack of SCVs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
Then you got all these T's and P's all inning Z all the time avoid having to ever get to mid-late game where they are probably what most considered too good. No one is complaining about Z early game here. Kinda messes up stats ect. Game is too fresh to hold off all ins all the time or even majority.
This is true, the All-Ins against Zerg are kinda retarded IMO but it's what most players find necessary. Personally the worst thing for me is to fight someone who is constantly applying pressure while droning up themselves. It forces me to use larva for units instead of drones, which messes up my eco.
Edited by vdek - 1/6/11 at 8:32am
post #8600 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by vdek View Post
Yeah I actually missed it. I know Fruitdealer won GSL 1, but he hasn't been doing so hot since then I think.



Heh, the hardest part about Zerg is getting timings correct. I think a macro Terran can be really deadly end game as well though, just that most players don't play that way. If you go Boxer style with the mass OCs and get a LOT of Barracks + Reactors. You could do a lot of damage to a macro zerg that way, in fact I think a macro terran could outproduce a macro zerg. Not to mention the fact that a Terran macroing with OCs would have a significantly stronger 200/200 army due to the lack of SCVs.
Now you are just playing pretend though. The reason Terran's don't macro like Z is not because they can't, it's because its not safe. Ling/Bane/Muta is far too mobile and effective to really expand too fast / spread yourself thin. This is why even in theory Zerg is so amazingly strong. Think about what Jediwin said about our TvZ. He said if I would have moved out with my FE orbital he would have got me. Why? Cause that means I would have no tanks to defend it. It's just not possible for Terran to be defended properly at all these spots. Zerg it doesn't even matter because your units move 13880-932289323908 mph.

As for the mass OC ****, that's such a big gimmick, even more so in TvZ and TvP. The only way you can really get that off is if you are just plain better than your opponent. TvT is the exception to the rule because its a slow match up, full of very immobile units, and huge lines of defense. That's the only reason we've seen it so far in high level games. Mass OC builds at this point are like the least proven thing ever in any other match up ( or even TvT still ).

It's already at the point where Terran hardly feels safe, and if we sit back and try to build a bunch of orbitals we'll just get owned.

T > Z for the first 10-15 minutes, then it gets progressively worse. And the micro / planning required later game is just so much less.
Edited by DoomDash - 1/6/11 at 8:35am
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