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[Official] Starcraft 2 Strategy & Discussion Thread - Page 897

post #8961 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwarren View Post
It's not stupid, you don't understand what I tried to explain to you in my previous post. Zergs NATURAL tech path automatically counters anything that a Terran player might go for that strays away from standard play, BigFan is right zergs aren't limited by structures like toss and terran but not being limited to making 1 unit at a time is only a part of the equation.

If you play a TvP and you go dual starport with tech labs and produce banshees and marines theres still a good chance that you wont lose even if your push fails. However, if you try something with even the slightest risk (or even less riskier standard play) in TvZ, such as a banshee push, and it fails on the first push you can kiss your ass and the game goodbye because its just too hard to come back against a droning zerg that can handle your pushes. I never said that TvZ was IMBA either, in my opinion its pretty balanced. Terran just has to stay aggressive and harass/keep the zerg on his toes.
OK, so you aren't saying it isn't imbalanced, yet all your arguments suggest otherwise. Again, think about this; you say zerg's natural tech path automatically counters everything terran does, but terrans' natural tech path doesn't? Am i getting this right?

I also don't get how a failed TvP banshee raven push can still keep you in the game, but a failed banshee push(by the way who goes for a banshee push in TvZ? banshee drone/queen kiting but not banshee push) TvZ the game is over? This is so wrong I won't comment further.
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post #8962 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhed5 View Post
I also don't get how a failed TvP banshee raven push can still keep you in the game, but a failed banshee push(by the way who goes for a banshee push in TvZ? banshee drone/queen kiting but not banshee push) TvZ the game is over? This is so wrong I won't comment further.
It works if you get the zerg off guard and they don't scout properly

You did it to Doom in one game and utterly wrecked him, 34+ kills between two banshees if I remember correctly. You also did it to me in one game but didn't get nearly as many kills, it was still devastating to my economy though.

Really though, Terran can come back economy wise via mules. Mules are ridiculously good, I wouldn't call them imbalanced since they are necessary, but they are good. Zerg actually has to drone very hard just to keep up with Mules/Chronoboosted probes IMO.
Edited by vdek - 1/10/11 at 11:45am
post #8963 of 25319
Yes : Chrono = Mule = Ability to make multiple drones.
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post #8964 of 25319
I can see where you got the idea that I think TvZ is imbalanced from but it isnt imba imo because it just requires a different style of play to win TvZ. This has nothing to do with Terrans tech path countering anything which by the way, terrans natural tech path doesnt counter zergs. What air unit counters mutas? Thors definitly dont counter mutas. Most terrans dont even go for air TvZ so the tech path normally ends at siege tanks or thors for most players. Even then its still pretty damn even when it comes down to siege tanks/thors/marines vs speedlings/banelings/mutas.

The real problem is that if the terran player doesn't do significant damage with his first big push than he's going to have a crap load of trouble coming back while if the zerg player makes a mistake or doesn't wipe out the terrans first big push he can still come back, his ability to come back in the game and win is significantly higher the more bases that hes on just due to the whole larva aspect of zerg. Now if you look at TvP or even TvT, even if you didn't do significant damage with your pushes there's still a good chance that you can still win the game. The problem is that trying to out macro a zerg is fighting an uphill battle because zerg has the best macro (droning) mechanic in the game. This is why in TvZ the terran player either has to have godlike macro or be putting constant pressure on the zerg and not letting him get those expansions down.

The reason why I said that its so risky to try anything out of the ordinary TvZ is that zergs natural tech path can handle pretty much anything that you toss at them that would be out of the ordinary such as banshess and rines, or early blue flame hellion drops. It's risky to try anything non standard TvZ because if your harrass or push fails than you're going to be much further behind due to the whole larva aspect of zerg and the gas that you could of spent on the banshees or other out of the ordinary tech could of been spent on upgrades for your standard units.
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post #8965 of 25319
Why do you need air units to counter mutas? You can't have apples for apples and oranges for oranges for each race. I agree with you that terran needs to do damage in his first push, but this only because of the volatility in the MU caused mainly by banelings. If zerg can't stop you there, the game is over, so it goes both ways. I am not going to add anymore because I don''t think there's a point, but I am up for games if you guys wish
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post #8966 of 25319
What are those essential videos to watch for newbs again?
Apart from Day9's Newbie Tuesday #1.
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post #8967 of 25319
132 is his best episode IMO. It's called back to the basics.
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post #8968 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post
132 is his best episode IMO. It's called back to the basics.
Thanks.
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post #8969 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwarren View Post
How does having larva at the hatchery make it a disadvantage? Taking out a hatch with even a few drops is going to be very tough and very risky, it would be better to take out drones/queens or possibly a tech building. Thats like a player doing drops TvP and going straight for the Nexus, its way too risky. By the time that its down to half hp he will flank you and take you out most likely.
That's not my main point though. My point is that while we can make as many of said unit as there are larvae provided we have the structure and resources, it means that if the opponent snipes a specific structure or is somehow able to take down the hatchery, Z is unable to make said unit or any units at all until they rebuild the hatchery. It's both an advantage(many said unit) and a disadvantage(lose production completely). This also doesn't take into account worker/army ratio and how an opponent can exploit that to their advantage.
It's like if you have one rax and I take it out, guess what, no more marines/marauders/ghosts, etc.... until you get another up. As T/P, you built several rax/gateways, etc.... so even if I was to take one of those out, you can still build the units from the other ones. Of course, you'll have to consider cc, dark templar shrine, armory, tech labs, etc.... but most go for pylons/supply depots or rax/WGs first
    
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post #8970 of 25319
Quote:
Originally Posted by thiru View Post
Thanks.
This is the episode BigFan should watch more than any. In fact I'd say its good for everyone ever. Even talks about why APM isn't that important, and what really is important.
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