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MSI GTX465 Twin Frozr II Golden Edition Owners Club - Page 387

post #3861 of 5083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metonymy View Post
I doubt every binned card was given that status because they were all sub-par in the exact same way.

My next question would then be: How do they choose what memory and shaders to "lock"? Some of it has to be turned off (hence the card being cut back to a 465), so what (besides the bios) tells the card which part of the 10 memory chips to actually use?
Interesting question, I see your point. But allow me to retort

First off, I doubt the problem with the cards that made them choose to make them 465's has anything to do with the memory. I think it's pretty well accepted that there were yield issues with GF100 and it had to do with the size and complexity of the chip. The memory ... it's relatively a simple thing, and not especially 'new', so ... I don't think any of these cards became 465's because of memory issues.

So, now the next logical question becomes ... is it actually important WHICH SM's get disabled? To that, I don't personally know the answer.

Given that it certainly seems to be the case that most 'real' 470's overclock farther with less voltage than our cards do, the criteria nV (or whoever) may have used to determine whether a card was to be downgraded was whether or not, with all SM's active, the card was (just pulling out random numbers here) capable of stably doing, say, 750MHz on the core at 1V.

Hence, the cards that would not got demoted, and two random shaders (say, 6 and 7, the same on every card), along with two random memory chips (say 9 and 10) and it's memory controller, were disabled via a 465 bios, and the cards became 465's.

Obviously in this scenario (which isn't that far-fetched IMHO) it doesn't matter what specific shaders and memory chips are enabled. The difference between 465 bios and 470 bios is just the switch of whether to shut off SM's 6 & 7, and memory controller 4, and chips 9 and 10.

Alternatively, let's just I'm wrong about that, and that it actually does matter, and that nV went in and specifically disabled SM's #3 and #8, like you specified.

But also suppose that these shaders were permanently 'marked' as problematic, right at the hardware level of the SM. Some bit in some ROM register was switched that says 'hey, you may wanna turn me off, and if you do, turn off a memory controller while you're at it' (note that the same thing could be done with memory chips I'd imagine if that was necessary).

And if this were the case, then the difference between the 465 bios and the 470 bios just has to be that the 465 bios will 'look' for such information, but the 470 bios will not. And in the scenario that the card is flashed back, the same SM's would get deactivated.

Now ... I'm not saying that I *know* any of this, all I'm saying is that I think there are scenario's that would make it possible to flash back these cards to 465's, 100% effectively
    
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post #3862 of 5083
Quote:
Originally Posted by brettjv View Post
Now ... I'm not saying that I *know* any of this, all I'm saying is that I think there are scenario's that would make it possible to flash back these cards to 465's, 100% effectively
A logical, rational, and well thought out response. I knew it could happen on the internet.

I see the idea you're getting to. Definitely an interesting perspective.

I wonder if any of the MSI guys can chime in and help provide clarity. I'm not really concerned about who is right/wrong.

I think it's an interesting topic and I'd be interested to know how they do it.
Edited by Metonymy - 9/17/10 at 9:33pm
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post #3863 of 5083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metonymy View Post
A logical, rational, and well thought out response. I knew it could happen on the internet.

I see the idea you're getting to. Definitely an interesting perspective.

I wonder if any of the MSI guys can chime in and help provide clarity. I'm not really concerned about who is right/wrong.

I think it's an interesting topic and I'd be interested to know how they do it.
Oh, definitely not a contest of right/wrong, bro You just got me thinking about something I'd for some reason never considered so I was kinda thinking out loud about it in response. Now I'm just curious about the answer.

One thing I will say though is I do think there is information above and beyond what one can mod in the bios on video cards that is more or less 'permanent' info that cannot be changed.

I can think of two examples offhand.

One is with the VID on Fermi cards. After I got my 465's and was trying to unlock my card and mod my VID w/NiBiTor, for awhile there I was at a loss as to how to make it work (NC eventually helped me )

It quickly became apparent that every stock 470 bios had the voltage registers done in the exact same way, and flashing to a different stock bios had no effect on the card's stock VID. Yet it was obvious that despite every card having in effect an identical bios, there were many different stock VID's. The only logical conclusion to be drawn is that this value is somehow woven into the 'fabric' of the card itself.

Similarly, with my old 5850's, I could flash them to a 5870 bios, and certain things would change like clocks and stock VID, but it wouldn't say 1600 shaders, it'd always say 1440.
    
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post #3864 of 5083
Quote:
Originally Posted by krazzymoose View Post
the card you have pictured is not a MSI 465 GE. It is a Inno3D card so if this is your actual card and not just a referenced pic than your outta luck chuck.

yes certain cards with 8 mem chips and a 470 chip can unlock cuda cores just use the asus upgrade tool.
ASUS 465 tool says "This card can not upgrade"

What happens, if I flash 470 bios to 8-chip card?
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post #3865 of 5083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metonymy View Post
Switch back to 1.6.1 and see if that helps.

2.0 was screwy with the BIOS I used (470 TFr II). Rolled back to 1.6.1 and all went back to normal.
It is still happening with 1.6.1.

I am now baffled.
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post #3866 of 5083
Danny if you switch the two cards around does the issue follow the slot, or the actual card? Hopefully the slot, as that would almost certainly indicate it's a software not a hardware issue.

edit:
N/M you already said above it switches from card to card, so it's definitely software. I've never had this issue (I'm actually on 1.6.0) ... what happens if you just reset/leave the cards on auto profile? Does it ever happen then?
Edited by brettjv - 9/17/10 at 11:56pm
    
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post #3867 of 5083
Quote:
Originally Posted by brettjv View Post
Danny if you switch the two cards around does the issue follow the slot, or the actual card? Hopefully the slot, as that would almost certainly indicate it's a software not a hardware issue.

edit:
N/M you already said above it switches from card to card, so it's definitely software. I've never had this issue ... what happens if you just reset/leave the cards on auto profile? Does it ever happen then?
No, well it hasn't happened yet if I simply reset and leave on auto profile. I basically have to just keep starting and restarting AB then then it kicks in. I am not too pleased. Maybe another AB update will fix it. It did not happen tonight with hours of gaming then I went to do some OCing and it started in Heaven.

I am too tired to mess with it anymore tonight.
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post #3868 of 5083
Well, if auto makes the fans too slow for your tastes, you may wanna consider the TFII bios for your cards at least til it's sorted. They have a very aggressive fan profile w/o running AB at all. You don't wanna have to be worrying about this crap all the time ...
    
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post #3869 of 5083
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexlp View Post
ASUS 465 tool says "This card can not upgrade"

What happens, if I flash 470 bios to 8-chip card?
if the asus tool says you cannot upgrade then you have a true 465 card and flashing the bios will have no effect. so basically your card is a 465 PCB with 8 mem and a 465 chip. sorry bro
post #3870 of 5083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metonymy View Post
Say memory chips 3 and 9 were locked by MSI. They get unlocked when you flash the card.

How do you ensure those two chips are the ones that get locked when you flash back down to a 465?
By using the BIOS that came with your card.

However, what if it's just as simple as this: the card is manufactured with the intention of selling it as a GTX 470. They test it but it doesn't meet their standards. It receives a GTX 465s BIOS. In a sense, this BIOS has limited eyesight: it can't see everything on the card: it's only capable of recognizing everything that it's programmed to look for and can't see past that.

So then a customer gets a hold of this card and flashes it with a GTX 470s BIOS. This BIOS is programmed to look for (and use) everything on the card, and therefore has a greater field of vision than the GTX 465's BIOS (so to speak, that is).

So then let's say that the customer runs into financial trouble and just decides to return the card. So, they flash it with a GTX 465's BIOS and send it back. The GTX 465's BIOS "knows" the specifications of the GTX 465, and therefore they should all have the same limited range of vision that the original BIOS had so to speak, right? I mean, as long as the BIOS has the same specifications, then I don't see how it can be any more complex than this.

In other words, I don't look at this whole thing as "unlocking", or "locking", or "locked" and "unlocked". If it's able to work with a GTX 470's BIOS, then I see it being as simple as this: the card is a GTX 470 that gets shipped with a GTX 465's BIOS which means the owner of that card can just flash it to a GTX 470 and then tweak it a little bit so that it's comfortable being a GTX 470.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexlp View Post
I'v not seen capacitors under two memory-chips like 470 PCB. So there is no chips on the board.

image here:

http://www.kharkovforum.com/attachme...2&d=1279202108

Flashing.. does anybody flash the 8-chip board?? CUDA cores is unlock?
If a GTX 465 has 8 memory chips on it, then it is not a GTX 470 and therefore it will not accept a GTX 470's BIOS. In other words, if a GTX 465 has 8 memory chips, then it is not "unlockable".

But even if it has 10 memory chips, the GPU itself still has to be a true GTX 470. Fortunately, the vast majority of these Golden Edition cards have a true GTX 470's GPU on the card in addition to the 10 memory chips.
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