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MSI GTX465 Twin Frozr II Golden Edition Owners Club - Page 389

post #3881 of 5083
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post
If a GTX 465 has 8 memory chips on it, then it is not a GTX 470 and therefore it will not accept a GTX 470's BIOS. In other words, if a GTX 465 has 8 memory chips, then it is not "unlockable".

But even if it has 10 memory chips, the GPU itself still has to be a true GTX 470. Fortunately, the vast majority of these Golden Edition cards have a true GTX 470's GPU on the card in addition to the 10 memory chips.
I completely get the hardware aspect of it. If it's not a true 470 GPU chip and doesn't have all 10 memory chips, then it can't be flashed to a 470. Same as putting a Ferrari sticker on a Toyota Corolla doesn't make it a race car... LOL

The heart of my question is still hanging. If MSI bins these 470 boards because something specific doesn't meet their specs, how does flashing it to a 465 make it work all the sudden.

I have figured out another way to state part of my question:

It's like having 4x2GB sticks of RAM in your computer, but say Windows only needs 1.5GB to run. What tells Windows what ram to use? Does it use part of the RAM from each stick? Does it max out one stick beore spilling over to using some of the next one?

That's where my "but what if 2 of the 10 memory chips were sub-par" thought came from. If MSI realized what specific hardware was bad, they could somehow lock it down. Then we're unlocking it and using it.

But if it's not a specific piece of the board that's wonky, then how does binning it and making it a 465 all the sudden make it work? If the hardware was too crappy to work as a 470, I guess I'm amazed that it somehow functions well as a 465.

To use a car anology: An engine with a bad piston is going to be a bad engine regardless of it being in a Ferrari or a Toyota.

Makes it seem like the overall output is what MSI was aiming for. If the goal for a Ferrari engine is 400hp, and they make a batch of engines that only make 200hp... and the standard engine for Toyotas is only 200hp... it seems kinda crappy to sell a bad engine under a different name just because it meets some of the specs. A bad engine is still a bad engine.

So it makes me wonder why they would sell a binned 470 as a 465 given that the hardware still has something wrong with it unless they completely isolate and bypass the broken part. And that's where my BIOS theory came in. It seems like they'd have to do something specific to bypass the sub-par part of the card so that it functions 100% as a 465 without a chance of failure.
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post #3882 of 5083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metonymy View Post
I completely get the hardware aspect of it. If it's not a true 470 GPU chip and doesn't have all 10 memory chips, then it can't be flashed to a 470. Same as putting a Ferrari sticker on a Toyota Corolla doesn't make it a race car... LOL

The heart of my question is still hanging. If MSI bins these 470 boards because something specific doesn't meet their specs, how does flashing it to a 465 make it work all the sudden.

I have figured out another way to state part of my question:

It's like having 4x2GB sticks of RAM in your computer, but say Windows only needs 1.5GB to run. What tells Windows what ram to use? Does it use part of the RAM from each stick? Does it max out one stick beore spilling over to using some of the next one?

That's where my "but what if 2 of the 10 memory chips were sub-par" thought came from. If MSI realized what specific hardware was bad, they could somehow lock it down. Then we're unlocking it and using it.

But if it's not a specific piece of the board that's wonky, then how does binning it and making it a 465 all the sudden make it work? If the hardware was too crappy to work as a 470, I guess I'm amazed that it somehow functions well as a 465.

To use a car anology: An engine with a bad piston is going to be a bad engine regardless of it being in a Ferrari or a Toyota.

Makes it seem like the overall output is what MSI was aiming for. If the goal for a Ferrari engine is 400hp, and they make a batch of engines that only make 200hp... and the standard engine for Toyotas is only 200hp... it seems kinda crappy to sell a bad engine under a different name just because it meets some of the specs. A bad engine is still a bad engine.

So it makes me wonder why they would sell a binned 470 as a 465 given that the hardware still has something wrong with it unless they completely isolate and bypass the broken part. And that's where my BIOS theory came in. It seems like they'd have to do something specific to bypass the sub-par part of the card so that it functions 100% as a 465 without a chance of failure.
To sum up:

A bad 470 chip would still make a bad 465. Bad chips are bad.
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post #3883 of 5083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Droogie View Post
To sum up:

A bad 470 chip would still make a bad 465. Bad chips are bad.
If it's the GPU chip, yup. If it's a memory chip that was bad, then it could be isolated/bypassed and the others could be used successfully.
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post #3884 of 5083
I dont see anything bad about these. Why would they sell something "bad" as a special edition witha higher price(yes i know the copper heatsink is part of that.)? That would be a bad move and make us not want to buy an msi product.
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post #3885 of 5083
Quote:
Originally Posted by brenden77 View Post
You wouldnt happen to have a picture of that 2159?? would you? Pardon my skepticism.
Sure, np.






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post #3886 of 5083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangerscott View Post
I dont see anything bad about these. Why would they sell something "bad" as a special edition witha higher price(yes i know the copper heatsink is part of that.)? That would be a bad move and make us not want to buy an msi product.
agreed though some people have not had success unlocking their card

Quote:
Originally Posted by Droogie View Post
To sum up:

A bad 470 chip would still make a bad 465. Bad chips are bad.
this is not necessarily true. AMD has been selling quad core phenom II's binned as dual and tri cores for quite some time. some have bad cores while others are perfectly fine. certain AMD mobos have a bios feature which can unlock the unused cores. I personally owned a 550 dual core phenom II which is a quad in disguise, I unlocked it but was not able to get it stable no matter what, it actually had unstable cores. so I had to leave it as a dual core unlike many others who had success. this chip has performed perfectly well as a dual core in my moms system ever since. so I don't see why this concept cant work on a GPU.

It would be interesting for those that have not been able to unlock their gold editions to run the asus unlock tool to see if the chip will be stable with all SP'd unlocked. this would be a great way to check if it is the memory or cuda cores that are unstable.
post #3887 of 5083
Quote:
Originally Posted by krazzymoose View Post
AMD has been selling quad core phenom II's binned as dual and tri cores for quite some time. some have bad cores while others are perfectly fine. certain AMD mobos have a bios feature which can unlock the unused cores. I personally owned a 550 dual core phenom II which is a quad in disguise, I unlocked it but was not able to get it stable no matter what, it actually had unstable cores. so I had to leave it as a dual core unlike many others who had success. this chip has performed perfectly well as a dual core in my moms system ever since. so I don't see why this concept cant work on a GPU.
Precisely. There's something on the chip itself that tells it to "lock this out", which would explain how when you re-lock the bad core(s) on the 550 that it goes back to working just fine.

This actually gives more credence to the aforementioned idea that it's a hardware lock of some sort so when it's flashed from a 470 back to a 465 that the card somehow "knows" what portions to lock back down.

I guess it makes me wonder why card #453 that I had... when I locked it back to a 465... it kept showing the artifact problems that it showed when unlocked to a 470. It was like locking it back down didn't keep it from using whatever was sub-par on it.

Sorry for all the long posts. Just something interesting that popped to mind a couple days ago.
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post #3888 of 5083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metonymy View Post
I guess it makes me wonder why card #453 that I had... when I locked it back to a 465... it kept showing the artifact problems that it showed when unlocked to a 470. It was like locking it back down didn't keep it from using whatever was sub-par on it.
if its not hardware driven then maybe it has to do with when they initially install the bios on the card they are able to specify what to lockout. perhaps they have a tool that we do not. and this is all speculation but then when you tried to flash it back you were not able to specify what to relock. I assume that you backed up your cards bios and reflashed with that. otherwise I'd be inclined to think that maybe each card has individual bios code to tell what needs to be locked out, though that would be a lot of work for each card. unless they had a sophisticated script that could automate that process which in full circle would eliminate a singular bios to card relationship. it would be either written into all the bios themselves or with aforementioned tool.

though being hardware driven seems like it would be the most logical explanation otherwise there just seems to be a lot of work being put forth to sell a 470 as a 465. so with your issue with card #453 maybe when you flashed back there was a glitch on the hardware level and the switch wasn't fully made. for intrigue did you fully erase the 470 bios or did you just flash over it. specifically i mean -9/--eraseeprom command before flashing to 465

yes this is all very interesting. if I missed anything in this conversation forgive.

ps: how dare you all listen to my thoughts lol
Edited by krazzymoose - 9/19/10 at 1:11am
post #3889 of 5083
either theres another tool or there are more commands we arent aware of for nvflash...
post #3890 of 5083
My #1932 is rocking great. TOo bad a bad intel chipset driver install took down my entire internet. Reinstalling as we speak.....the entire win7
Updates on my magnificent card are as follows.
The memory has seemed to be breaking in just fine and sitting at 1925. I wonder if more volts will help? 815 on core seems to be fine@1.087. I have a factory unlocked NCIX card and the thing was running great at 840 or so until it starts getting a lil too hot. I've installed a high speed adjustable antec fan to blow between the card and my x-fi on my micro x58m msi.
In short, I picked up a gtx260 for phsyx at microcenter for 60$ WOWOWOWOOW!!! no x-fi though I'm thinking going Asus for more slots.
Darkest of Days is runnning like a dream, and metro seemed to have smoothed out only subtly. I want to go to 1.2 volts. I also have a evga gtx465 that was a 1.1v max. with no unlocking luck.
Good luck and may the volts be with you.
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